[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: Hello. All right, see ya. Why are, what do you... Hmm, I feel like I, I only saw you within 48 hours, so I feel like I don't know what to talk about. You know in...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I didn't give us enough of uh, extensive list of things to discuss.
Em Schulz: You know, in Love On The Spectrum when Tanner is like, "I don't know what to say right now, but I'm having a really good time."
Christine Schiefer: I've never watched that show.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, maybe you could read the context out of my example, [laughter], like where...
Christine Schiefer: I just, I just wanted to clarify. So like, as we tell the example, I've never seen it, so I don't know who we are talking about, but, umm, go ahead.
Em Schulz: Well, that was it. I don't know what we're gonna talk about, but I'm having a really good time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's what matters. Umm, well, I'm happy about that. Umm, I, how are you doing? Are you, do you have any fun weekend plans? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What's wrong with us today? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It feels wrong. Everything feels wrong.
Em Schulz: Hold on. Maybe we have to get some zoomies out. Hold on. Your turn.
Christine Schiefer: Better?
Em Schulz: Well, I am.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, this is... Speaking of zoomies, this is... Do you wanna see... Remember Anubis?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we bought this guy in Salem. Isn't he cute?
Em Schulz: He is cute. Do you wanna tell a story yet of your statue experience?
Christine Schiefer: Sure. You know what? Let's tell that story. Okay. Good idea.
Em Schulz: Wait, you gotta get the zoomies out or else I'll look like a, like an idiot.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. I wouldn't want that.
Em Schulz: No, you have to join me or else we're not best friends. Thank you. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Now, you don't look like an idiot. That's the good news.
Em Schulz: You must be so used to that with a little kid, though. Like, that can't have been your first time today.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, we did go to Little Gym and, umm, we did not follow any instructions and did our own adventuring, so yes. Uh, it would not be my first time today, so...
Em Schulz: That's very fun.
Christine Schiefer: You are correct in your assessment. [laughter] Oh, boy. Umm, okay. I don't know how to even tell this story. Basically, I'm trying to think of how to even begin. But, umm...
Em Schulz: Have we talked about it? Sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt you. I will, I will not interrupt you after this. Just kidding. But like, what...
Christine Schiefer: Please, please do. I don't, I don't want you to not, it... I don't know what to do when you're quiet.
Em Schulz: I think we've talked about this before on the show, or have I just been around you...
Christine Schiefer: No, we have not.
Em Schulz: Okay. I've just heard it. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I just like drowned you in information when I saw you in Salem. Umm...
Em Schulz: I loved it.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Okay. So what happened is, I was going through this weird... After I read that book, The Untethered Soul, I got really, just like in this woo phase, and I started thinking about consciousness [chuckle], you know, as you do. And, umm, I started meditating regularly and taking these like e-online psychic courses, [chuckle] like, uh...
Em Schulz: You do you, girl.
Christine Schiefer: Like on Udemy, all these platforms. I was just watching like every masterclass I could get my hands on, I was following all these YouTubers who are psychic mediums. I was just trying to learn as much as I could about like, I dunno, opening that part of myself up. And, umm, so I got into this zone where I really wanted to connect with my spirit guides and do some past life exploration because I, ever since I was really little, as I've talked about on the show before, like years ago, umm, I've always had this very strong pull to ancient Egypt, and I just thought, oh, that's just a fascinating subject. A lot of people feel that way.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but, so as I was meditating daily for like 45 minutes to an hour, I started getting these like, very clear visuals of what seemed to be ancient Egypt. And so one afternoon, I was just going through a box in my closet and I found, I was just reorganizing, and I found my old journals, and I have 8 million of them, right? But I have all these old dream journals. And for fun, I just flipped through one randomly and I started seeing like Egypt on the paper. And so I started reading through, and it was when I was probably like 13, 12, 13, I had been writing down all the dreams I was having about ancient Egypt. And I was like, oh my God, I remember having those dreams, but I didn't know I'd written them down. So I'm reading them and I'm like, this is crazy. It's about how I would sit and, umm, my dream was always that I was healing somebody. Umm, one was a snake bite, one was like really bad blisters from the sun, and I would always dream that I was using my hands and like healing them and my... And that was it. That was always a dream. So anyway...
Em Schulz: In the most eerie way, you also had [chuckle] the, the thing that I always love-hated was when you, umm, you say you were looking through your old journals as a child, and the first one you found was you saying, "I had the dream again." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. That's right. You're so right. It said, I had the...
Em Schulz: It said 24 movie.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You're so Right. It said, I had the dream again, which I was like, holy shit, I didn't even know I'd written them down, blah blah blah, and like, repeatedly. And so I was like, well, that's crazy, especially with all this, like... So I think I was meant to find that because I was like, okay, I really gotta get to the bottom of this. So I do this full on past life regression. It's like 90 minutes. I'm like totally tranced out and I just start writing down like everything I'm feeling and seeing and experiencing. And these names just kept like... All these words, like kept coming into my, my head and I would just write them down. I had no idea what they meant. So the first one that I got was the name... So I, I, you know, that, umm, that Eye of Horus...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Imagery? Umm, so I kept seeing that and I was like, oh, like I, I don't know what that's called, but I've heard of that before. Umm, anyway, so I kept seeing that, and then the name I kept getting was Sekhmet. And I was like, I don't know what that means. I don't know. Is that another symbol? I have no idea. Uh, after the, uh, meditation, I like go about my day. I don't really think about it. I just put my journal down. And later on, I'm falling asleep that night and that damn name comes back in my head. And I was like, oh, I never looked that up. And so I roll over, it's nighttime, I open my phone and I just start Googling and I typed in... I have a screenshot because this really freaked me out, but I typed in Sekhmet, so like I didn't know how to spell it, umm, and it's this lion goddess, like I had no fucking clue, but it... Whatever. Point being, it's this lion goddess. She's the goddess of war and healing.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which I thought was very interesting. And, umm, she is one aspect of that like Eye of Horus, but she's like a, the, the feminine version basically. And so I'm like, whoa, that's freaky. And then I'm falling asleep and I see the word, like, I just like, it pops in my brain, the word Hotep. And I'm like, what the fuck is Hotep? So then I looked that up, H-O-T-E-P, and apparently that is an Egyptian word, meaning either to be satisfied, at peace, or it also means an offering that is ritually presented to a deity. So I'm like, okay, so Hotep and Sekhmet keep coming up. So I'm like, okay, so what? I'm supposed to like give her an offering? I don't even know who this is.
Christine Schiefer: So the next day, Em and I fly out, I crashes into a snowbank. You've all heard that story. And the next day, Em and I are wandering around. We get our little aura pictures taken. We go into this one shop called Omen that I was like really, really gung-ho about. It's the one I wanted to go into the most. We walk in, literally, the first thing, Em goes, "Look at that." And it's this like, huge wall or huge like, umm, shelf of all these Egyptian statues, and it says, "Imported from Egypt." They're like these beautiful stone sculptures. And I'm just kind of looking at them and they're just so beautiful. And I just pick one up and I look at the bottom, and it says, "Sekhmet," on it. And I was like, "Em!" And I like went running over and he said, "Well, now you have to buy it." And it was really fucking expensive. And we were like... [chuckle] Em was like, "You can expense it." I was like, "I'm not gonna expense this statue." Honestly, I feel like I'll be like smited or something if I do that. But I bought her, here she is. Hold on.
Em Schulz: If only you were having like, if only you were having like the word DeLorean pop up in your head, and then we ran into one...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: And I'd be like, "Oh, you have to buy it now for me."
Christine Schiefer: It's like, new rode, rode microphone. Weird.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It keeps coming into my head. [laughter] Umm, so here she is. She's uh, she's a beauty. She was mailed to the store from Egypt by, you know, the artisan who made it. She's just very beautiful. And so I brought her home in my suitcase and I put her on my little, what I now call an altar, I guess. I don't know. Umm, and so I'm just in this very strange zone where just synchronicities keep happening and umm, you know, there's a lot more just little stuff that, oh, like I pulled [chuckle], I pulled a tarot card and it was like her tarot card. Just all this weird stuff... All this weird stuff was happening. I, I, and it keeps happening and I'm trying to lean into it. I don't quite know what it means, so if anybody out there has any sort of like clarity or guidance or other synchronicities that match up with this one, let me know.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but otherwise, yeah. That's my Sekhmet story, umm, goddess of war. She's very scary, umm, but very intense. And when I looked up, like anybody who's covered her or talked about her, they say like, if she enters your life, she's like, "Let's fucking go." Like, she's intense. She's like fiery. She's very, umm... She basically like murdered a bunch of people back in the day in the, the mythology of her, and the way that they [laughter] the way that they stopped her is they, uh, dyed the river to look like blood, 'cause she was like drinking everyone's blood. Then they filled it with beer and got her drunk so that she fell asleep. And then she woke up, this is very me, she woke up...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And was like, "Oh, oops. Did I do that?" And everyone was like, "You were like a crazed lunatic." And she's like, "Oh, I guess I'll try to heal everybody now." So she's a goddess of healing too. I just think it's really interesting. I don't know...
Em Schulz: It does weirdly sound like something you would do.
Christine Schiefer: Right? It does. [laughter] I was like... Oh, and so offering, a, a Hotep, an offering for her is often beer. So I was like, I can do that.
Em Schulz: Interesting. You know, it could become really dangerous, a slippery slope if you Hotep some blood her way, you know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I'm like bloodletting.
Em Schulz: Oh, I wonder, since we're, well, I don't know, maybe she'd be mad about it, but I bet she'd be interested to see, uh, the Chicago River during St. Patrick's Day when they dye at Green. [laughter] I'd just be like, "Does this bring you back?" Or like...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure she loves fun little kitschy, uh, Irish celebrations. Yeah, Irish celebrations.
Em Schulz: Little moments where we trick her about what the body of water looks like. Yeah. I'm sure she'll actually hate it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm sure she'll love that memory. Yeah. I don't think she would like that very much, but, umm, thank you. She's now staring at me. I feel like I have to turn her away. [laughter] Umm, so I'm like half scared and half into her. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like if she's on my side, great.
Em Schulz: It sounds... I mean, I, I don't know man, I'm... Maybe it's good that she's on your side or maybe she's not on your side. I don't know. I don't totally know. Maybe she's about to reign chaos, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's entirely possible, probable really.
Em Schulz: I just... Just two messy bitches together. Just [laughter] bad bitch with a baddie friend.
Christine Schiefer: It's like... Yeah. It's like, it's like that, umm, you know, airy, that like, uh, fire sign, air sign situation where they're just like, where we're just toxic and like keep just egging each other on, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I don't know. You know, I don't know what if anyone has any clarity on this. Umm, I, the other weird thing was I kept having these intense dreams or, uh, like flash, but not flash, well, sort of flashbacks, like when I was doing these meditations. And I would like write them down, like I said, like, oh, umm, you know, a, a mud, a clay mud hut. Like I was describing what I saw and then like Googling it later and it matched up to the... It was really creepy. It was really creepy.
Em Schulz: To save your own sanity, I feel like we're gonna get a lot of messages about people asking where you learned the most or if you had any resources to pass on to people.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. That's a very good question. I feel like I've just been so chaotically bouncing around trying to find anybody that I felt like a connection with to follow. And I haven't quite found anyone yet. Like, I feel like I've watched so many different people talk about their experiences and, and how they practice their psychic stuff. And nobody so far has really like made it to the point where I want to like promo them, 'cause I just haven't really clicked with anybody yet. Umm, so I'm looking, but if anyone has uh, recommendations by the way, I would definitely take them. But the courses I took were on Udemy.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: U-D-E-M-Y. Umm, and they have a few like psychic development courses, things like that where they're video courses and they give you like little practical lessons and, and practice tools and stuff. Umm, but yeah, if anyone has anyone I can follow who might have more guidance on this, let me know.
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway. Why do you drink? 'Cause of me, probably?
Em Schulz: I'm still thinking about that damn tooth. That's why I'm drinking, 'cause I can't...
Christine Schiefer: I am trying my best to not think about it, and I can't, I can't stop thinking about it. It really sucks.
Em Schulz: Are you doing the thing where your tongue keeps touching it?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Like on purpose?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. It's constant.
Em Schulz: God. I literally, I don't know. Does it hurt though? You're okay?
Christine Schiefer: So I have a really bad headache 'cause it's raining here and that's what happens, 'cause my sinuses are trash, and so I feel like I, it's hurts, but I think I just have a sinus headache. [chuckle] I'm just falling apart. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel very bad for you. Maybe you need like a really messy, chaotic, bad bitch to just come in and fix everything. So I would just keep her around for a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's what's happening. I hope she stays.
Em Schulz: She just saw you and went, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just gonna handle it here."
Christine Schiefer: Step aside. [laughter] It's possible, I could use the help, okay? And she knows it and everyone knows it.
Em Schulz: You know, uh, one of the reasons I drink, uh, is after touring, let's just, I don't even want to get into it 'cause I'm actually, I think I really need to like look in the mirror soon. But my spending was outta control when we were on tour. Umm, Salem, I justify. Salem, I justify.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because it was Salem and it was with you and it was our first time. And, but there were other times where, man, I fucking love a tchotchke. I gotta be honest. And I was doing a little tchotchke here...
Christine Schiefer: I, It's so hard... It's impossible not to.
Em Schulz: A little tchotchke there. And honestly, I, I'm curious, but at the same time, I'm so glad I don't have, I'm not able to do this. I kind of wish everything I bought on tour, I just put in one bin and didn't touch until the end of the tour to see how much I accumulated, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Because I think it would've been an incredible number. Like, I think it would've been, not money-wise, but I think just in items. Like, I, I mean like even I was buying like 10 stickers at every place. And so like 10 stickers times 20 cities, like that's 200 fucking stickers. And like, I'm so scared when I think about like, I'm like... Anyway, so the reason I drink is because I think now that we're not touring anymore, you have one more city to fly to, LA, but I don't have to travel. And so, umm, because I don't have to fly anymore, uh, for a few months, I am just looking around and I'm like, okay, now I am sitting in the damage I've caused, and umm I don't...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You're in the rubble of your own spending.
Em Schulz: And I don't know where to put anything. I don't know where to put anything. 'Cause I'm just like, oh, I have, we already didn't have a lot of room, now where does it go? Because I've bought more things. I mean, I literally bought a fucking... Did I, did I tell you about the, the horn?
Christine Schiefer: The what?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I bought a car horn.
Christine Schiefer: What? No. What? What the fuck is that?
Em Schulz: See? Like, why did I do that? But like I don't... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What? Like literally, Em, why? Like, why?
Em Schulz: Okay, I will tell you. I will tell you. This is actually one of my favorite purchases. I don't even care. I, I know it makes the least sense, but I love her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so can you tell everybody what it is? 'Cause I barely even know what it is.
Em Schulz: Okay. This is a car horn from the, from 1910.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And this is back before they literally had like digital horns inside of, or like an actual horn inside your wheel. You would take this little piece and you would hook it onto your window, and when you were driving around...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: You would squeeze it when, when people were not moving fast enough, I guess. I love her so much.
Christine Schiefer: So, is that vintage or is it like a replica?
Em Schulz: No, it's literally from 1910.
Christine Schiefer: That's really cool.
Em Schulz: Right? Okay, so I like, this...
Christine Schiefer: Like, why would anybody like diss you for that? I mean, I know I did for a minute, but I just couldn't see what was happening. I just kept hearing a sound.
Em Schulz: If it was a replica, I'd be like, this is so stupid. But because it's literally from the time...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's... Since it's... That's pretty cool.
Em Schulz: And it still honks. Listen, listen, listen. Hold on. Pretend you're a noisy driver. Hey, I am walking here.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'll just, I'll just wander into the road. Oops.
Em Schulz: Everyone... Why?
Christine Schiefer: A horse on a carriage is coming straight for me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, by the way, whoever lives upstairs is finally getting what they deserve, with this fucking thing.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] They deserve this. Honestly, Em, this is like a multi-purpose tool, and I don't think you should ever question yourself for buying it, is what I have to say.
Em Schulz: Umm, that's my, uh, so that was easily like the dumbest purchase. Everything else made maybe a little more sense but like, [laughter] but so, uh, from 200 stickers to a car horn from basically the 1800s.
Christine Schiefer: A vintage car horn. That's the wildest thing I've ever heard, like a, over 100-year-old car horn.
Em Schulz: I did test it on my Subaru. The window, uh, is made differently these days, can you believe it?
Christine Schiefer: Your Subaru? [laughter]
Em Schulz: So it doesn't fit. Umm, I don't know where to put it, but it will be put somewhere. And if not, I feel like I'll find a way to like DIY, add it to something.
Christine Schiefer: Can we use it on... We should use it on a ghost hunt and be like, if you're from the 1900s, early 1900s, like you know how to use this thing, you know, squeeze it.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. If we ever go to like Henry Ford's Museum and [laughter] see like...
Christine Schiefer: Right? He's gonna be like, "Put that back up in the assembly line. That's for the Model T." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, no, I think I'm just sitting in awareness that I got a lot of stuff. It wasn't a lot of stuff for like, I'm like financially in trouble, but I am seeing like my behavior right in front of me. You know what I mean? So it just hurts my feelings a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: It hurts your feelings, but that's part of life. You know, you have to face [laughter], you have to reckon with what you've done. You know, like it's, it's, we've all been there.
Em Schulz: I had just downsized my closet and then on tour, I'm not kidding, I had to have bought like 15 shirts. I had to have, I had to have. In Salem, are you kidding me? I bought like three shirts with you.
Christine Schiefer: Well, we... But you can't not.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'll say. Like, it's not possible. It's simply not possible. I'm the worst therapist. Your poor, poor therapist is like," I've been trying to undo this for weeks," and I'm sitting here like, "No, it's just part of life, Em. This is what you do and what you are."
Em Schulz: This is, this... In a hoop that never ends. Yeah, that's. [laughter] I, uh, yeah. Anyway, I'm just thinking about, ugh, I don't know. I don't know where to put anything. And so anyway, that spiraled me into downsizing different things that I could control. And so I downsized my, my mug collection recently. Umm, and I learned that I actually bought two more mugs while I was on tour. Umm, so that had to, I immediately bought them and then had to consider it how good they were.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. [laughter] It's like...
Em Schulz: And one of them was so tiny, it can't even be used to drink. I think in my mind at the time I was like, I'll use it to hold more tchotchkes. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, every time I have an extra mug, I'm like, could I, do I need another pencil holder? 'Cause it's just a decorative.
Em Schulz: Right? It's exactly what I think of. I'm like, I own maybe six pens in this entire apartment, but I have about 25 mugs for those pens. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Well, we just need to go shopping for pens. That's the only solution.
Em Schulz: Like, okay, here's one of the, like here's the two mugs I got. One of the mugs I got at the Henry Ford Museum, 'cause I really was just so, like, that was such a cool museum. Umm, then the other mug I got because... Okay, the one I got at the Henry Ford Museum, it was a Lamy's Diner, Lamy's Diner mug. And Lamy's Diner is one of the cars in this like, massive museum. It's a train car that they refurbished into a diner in the middle of the museum.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It looked very cool. So then I ended up having to get a mug.
Christine Schiefer: It's very cool.
Em Schulz: Then the other mug I got was from another diner in New Hampshire when I was passing through and there's...
Christine Schiefer: When we were passing through, you mean when we were fucking... Oh, before the snowbank?
Em Schulz: No, I went through New Hampshire again after you left. And I...
Christine Schiefer: On the... After... Wow. That was brave of you.
Em Schulz: Thank you [chuckle] I know, I, uh, but so in New Hampshire there's like, it's like in the crossfires of like Maine, Massachusetts, it's like in where all the, all the cities touch, all the states touch. There is a literal roundabout in the middle of the interstate.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And next to the roundabout is a diner called the Roundabout Diner. And their catchphrase is, "The Best Food Around." Ugh, how do you not get...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, that's so cute.
Em Schulz: How do you not get a diner, a mug from there? Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: You have to. It's, again, it's legally speaking, I'm pretty sure it's required. So I don't know what your therapist is gonna say, but she's incorrect.
Em Schulz: I, I'm glad you said that. I think she's not gonna know until I'm drinking out of a mug in front of her and she's like, "That's a new one." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Where'd you get that? I thought we weren't buying more mugs. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, I got it down to 12 mugs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's pretty good.
Em Schulz: But, but Allison has like another dozen, so we still have two dozen mugs for two people.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was like, I have so many effing mugs, I just put them in different rooms and I'm like, this is my upstairs mug. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just, I'm just making excuses for my own behavior. So I get it, Em.
Em Schulz: If I, I, when I think about, umm, like I, so I have 12 mugs that I can choose from in the cupboard, but when I think about my tchotchke mugs, I still have like two or three floating around somewhere. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but that's different. That's a decorative mug.
Em Schulz: Obviously. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Obviously.
Em Schulz: And one of them is... I remember I got it from you forever ago, was the coffin, the caskets.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm so glad you still have that. I was afraid to ask, but, uh, that was a, that's also vintage. I feel like vintage things don't count.
Em Schulz: You're right. But it's also, it's one of my...
Christine Schiefer: It's a rule I've invented.
Em Schulz: But I keep like all of our like memory cards from our investigations in there, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cute. See? It's, it's not, it's it's not fashion, it's function, you know.
Em Schulz: You know, you tell Allison that because she is so over me, but, umm, anyway...
Christine Schiefer: I'm afraid to tell her that. But you can tell her I said it and then I'll turn my phone off, so that's fine.
Em Schulz: Oh, can I tell you one last thing? It's not really why I drink, but it is a funny little thing that happened. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Always.
Em Schulz: So, uh, Allison has been gone literally since before Salem. Uh, we, yeah, we've... She's been gone, gone, gone in the literal Amazon, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like literal, literal Amazon. Yeah.
Em Schulz: She doesn't come back for another, like it's all, it's mid-April. I haven't seen her since mid-March. I won't be seeing her until mid, until our show in LA, so in May.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God's sake.
Em Schulz: And then, immediately after that, uh, we have friends in town. I'm seeing you. So like, we're only gonna get like that the day of the show to be alone together. Umm, and then I don't really see her until mid-May, it seems. So big trip. I was not invited. And honestly, thank God, because I would not survive the Amazon. [laughter] There's just no way. [laughter] Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I would've had to really do some, uh, work on finding a replacement. It would've been a lot of work for me. So I appreciate it. Thank you.
Em Schulz: I do, you know, Allison, she, we've gone to the Philippines together for RJ's wedding at one point. I was supposed to go, where was I supposed to go with her? But then your baby got me sick. Oh, Iceland.
Christine Schiefer: Iceland.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then the, and now she's like, I don't think I get invited anymore. I think she's like, it's obvious you're not having fun. So [laughter], I'm just not gonna bring you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, you didn't seem too upset about it.
Em Schulz: I was not too upset. I was, I was not too upset. I honestly, I don't wanna say it too loudly, but your baby getting me sick might have actually saved me. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I never thought you'd admit that aloud on the podcast, but thank you for that [laughter], 'cause uh, I've been waiting for that one, so thank you.
Em Schulz: You're welcome. No, umm, Allison and her family all travel very differently than I do. I think I would've been in a, I would've been faking a very happy mood in a lot of, in a lot of spaces. [laughter] So, umm, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But isn't that beautiful when like, your partner knows that and is like, I'm not even gonna question it. Just like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, example, next week I go on a trip with my mom, and Allison was invited and went, no, thank you. I'm not going. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: See?
Em Schulz: We operate very well together in that we know to not be near each other often. So...
Christine Schiefer: When you're... You operate so well together when you're apart, it's really powerful stuff.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, Allison was in, uh, the Amazon, or is in the Amazon. She's literally, she decided she was gonna take a whole month off of work and just go. And, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I need you to understand how relieved I was when I saw her post on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, she's alive. Like, I don't know anything about, but like the way she travels too, I'm like, that girl is just like roughing it down there. And I'm, I'm like, are you okay? There's literally spiders and snakes.
Em Schulz: Oh, she literally... She literally slept outside. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: For multiple days for like six days in a row and she was off for it.
Christine Schiefer: Why didn't you wanna go?
Em Schulz: And her phone didn't work. I know. And, uh, I guess she, like, she booked a tour, like to be with a tour guide through all this and she assumed other people would be on this tour, but nope, it's just her and a random man. A random man for six days in the jungle or the rainforest together.
Christine Schiefer: That seems really wise. No com, no further comment.
Em Schulz: And so the one second that she actually did get service, she FaceTimed me and just to like, it was like perfect. It should have been a Renaissance painting. The, the, the difference between us is that she was calling you from the rainforest and I was in a rainforest cafe in the Mall of America. Like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You were like, I missed you. So I came down to the Glendale Galleria. I wanted to spend some time thinking of you.
Em Schulz: No, no. The Mall of America in Minneapolis. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, it's even better. Come on. Nothing beats that.
Em Schulz: Umm, and she showed me a, a monkey and I showed her the monkey behind me that was robotic and animatronic and...
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, that one has a straw in it and you can drink a cocktail out of it. So I don't know what you're thinking, but my...
Em Schulz: That's what I said. I was like, like mine, mine was cheaper and more fun and there's no mosquitoes. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm saying.
Em Schulz: I win. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: You do.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that was my funny story of like, of all the places you could have called me in while you were in the rainforest, and that was just beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: I cannot. Please tell me. I'm gonna make, can I request, who out there makes Renaissance paintings? [laughter] I would really like...
Em Schulz: I would kill, I would hang that up in my own home one day. I would ha.
Christine Schiefer: Easily.
Em Schulz: I would have a painting of it. Allison with a monkey. With a monkey.
Christine Schiefer: The vintage horn right on top. It would be like such a beautiful display. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, I guess that's why, uh, umm, that's, I drink because of the downsizing and having to like reconcile with who I am as a person...
Christine Schiefer: Right. I actually wasn't even gonna talk about Allison, but I'm so glad because I'm just, I get so anxious, but not really anxious. But I, I do wonder, you know, is she doing okay? And I didn't wanna go there, but I'm so glad that I saw her Instagram post and I am now aware that she's alive and kicking. [laughter] That's good.
Em Schulz: She is. She'll, she'll be, uh, apparently she, I mean, listen to. By the way, I get so... And I... Ugh... She's the opposite of who my mother expected for me because my mom wanted nice Jewish boy energy who doesn't ever leave the house, who just kind of stays put and just doesn't cause a scene, is a cautious risk taker...
Christine Schiefer: Goes on the occasional cruise.
Em Schulz: The occasional cruise may be just to stroll down the road, it doesn't wanna raise any any feathers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then Allison goes, hey, how's your mom gonna feel about me going away for a month off grid in the rainforest? And also while I'm there, I'm gonna be piranha fishing. And while I'm there...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I'm going to be... Oh, she narrowly escaped death from a very poisonous snake twice now, and she... I mean like, my mother is having a heart attack. She's like, "You could have picked anyone." And I'm like, I... "I live with that every day, I know." So.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like you did the thing of like, oh, you chose someone the opposite of what your parents did as like a punishment, but like you're also deeply being punished for it.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I know. I revolve a little too close to the sun.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. Maybe mama's right. No, I'm just kidding. Allison's my favorite person, but she really does know how to get your heart nervous.
Em Schulz: I already have heart problems, and then she tells me she's going to the Amazon and then I just kind of bend over holding my chest.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, look at this giant poisonous spider. I crawled under its web and I'm like why? No. Stop.
Em Schulz: She also, she could not look more like fucking Nigel Thornberry and all of her pictures because she's wearing these green like khakis, and like a mosquito netted shirt...
Christine Schiefer: She's a khaki queen.
Em Schulz: I've never seen.
Christine Schiefer: It's true.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I don't know who I'm with.
Christine Schiefer: There's one of her in a boat on the Amazon wearing our one of our podcast shirts that like Sam made like that loose one that I also have, and I'm like, wow, I didn't think we'd see footage of this making it out into the literal Amazon, but here we are.
Em Schulz: I I love her very much, but I do fear if we ever decide to have children, there's a 50% chance now that they're gonna be... They're gonna make dangerous decisions. When like had I just stuck...
Christine Schiefer: No, I feel like you and me...
Em Schulz: With the nice Jewish boy thing, then I would have had...
Christine Schiefer: 100%.
Em Schulz: A kid who just wants to stay home, have a, uh, warm cup of tea and just like not not... And then that's about it. So I failed myself.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I will say that you would need to definitely commit to at least one because if the first one doesn't work out and ends up in the rain forest, then like you need one that will be on your side for solidarity, you know, umm.
Em Schulz: I need someone who, who could like side eye with me when when Allison is like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Who wants to go on a trip?
Christine Schiefer: Who could go on the cruise? And you're like, "There's a water slide on my trip." and Allison is like, "There's piranhas on mine. One kid goes this, one goes that way." That sounds great.
Em Schulz: I just need...
Christine Schiefer: I'm going on your trip, by the way, Leona and I are coming with you.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: No offense Al pal. We'll FaceTime from from The Mall of America.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, as I'm discussing my like shopping problem, I really just want... If I'm gonna have a kid, I want somebody who just wants to go on a shopping spree and then we just go home. Like have a nice nice dinner, maybe some drinks, maybe like a fun little movie or something. Uh, you know, the things that would be the equivalent of a nice long weekend.
Christine Schiefer: You want your child to be a nice Jewish husband.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] I do, yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: A nice Jewish boy.
Em Schulz: I do. A nice Jewish boy.
Christine Schiefer: Go to the mall, have dinner, have a Cheesecake Factory, then come home and what an exciting day we've had.
Em Schulz: That's exactly it. You get it.
Christine Schiefer: That's all I want too. So I get it. No, I do.
Em Schulz: You could be my nice Jewish boy. How about that?
Christine Schiefer: I kind of am. Like the more we talk about it I'm like, oh, maybe I fill that role, you know. And I, I, it's an honor, I will say. And a privilege.
Em Schulz: Thank you so much, I appreciate it. Well, anyway, with all of that, uh, shall we get into something just insanely disturbing?
Christine Schiefer: Oh always.
Em Schulz: My story is, uh, short today. It's just like a quick little local legend. And also like I feel gross talking about it, but it is a legend, and it is very popular in the area, so we should talk about it. Umm, but here's a PSA. Uh, well, maybe maybe I can give the PSA later, but you'll realize why, uh, I'm bothered by it pretty early on.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So this is the, uh, story of The Char-Man of Ojai Valley.
Christine Schiefer: I've never heard of such a thing.
Em Schulz: Me either.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were going to say Charmander. I got really excited 'cause that's my favorite Pokemon.
Em Schulz: I literally, every time I wrote Char-Man in my notes, I had to delete the der because I kept writing Charmander...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Charmander is, uh, is also a legend. You should cover one day, but anyway, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I would love to, if I just went episode by episode, and just covered all original 150 Pokemon. They are legends, so.
Christine Schiefer: They are legends in their own right. Agreed.
Em Schulz: So Ojai Valley. Will you, did you ever go to Ojai Valley when you...
Christine Schiefer: I did not.
Em Schulz: Or Ojai when you lived here? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mmh.
Em Schulz: Umm, the only time I ever heard of Ojai was in, umm, there was a TV show my mom and I were obsessed with in like the early 2000s called 'Brothers and Sisters.' Do you remember that show?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: It was like on The CW or something, or...
Christine Schiefer: That sounds like it would be.
Em Schulz: It couldn't have been on The CW. It had to have... It was like more an adultier show. It was on at 9 o'clock at night, but 'Brothers and Sisters,' it was, it had to be like 2008-ish, 2009-ish, that the show was on. And my mom and I would watch it every week when it came out, and it was about like, I think like six or seven brothers and sisters who all ran a winery in Ojai.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. What?
Em Schulz: And then the youngest one, Justin, he's kind of like the bad boy. He was like the sex symbol of them all in the show, and everyone always wanted scenes with Justin. And then he ends up, Justin ends up dating this girl, and then they find out like at the end of season 1 they're like, they're, after their dad passed away, they're finding out that he actually had an affair, a long time affair with their mom and had a baby girl and Justin's dating her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit! So it's his half-sister?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: That was crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, uh, this, this absolutely is giving ABC Family vibes, and it was on ABC. Uh, apparently, it came on Sunday nights after 'Desperate, after 'Desperate Housewives' so yeah.
Em Schulz: Ooh, that why we got into it.
Christine Schiefer: So you were really watching some...
Em Schulz: That's why we got into it 'cause we were always watching 'Desperate Housewives' and we must have...
Christine Schiefer: That's a great show.
Em Schulz: Never changed the channel, and we're like, oh, let's see what this is about. And then we got hooked.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. I mean, it lasted for like five years, five seasons.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We were, we were big fans of that show and then it got cancelled for some reason, but, uh, any time I saw the word or I still see the word, Ojai, I just think about that damn family and I'm like, uh, man. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's where they lived?
Em Schulz: They, I think they lived near by, they worked there, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: They had a winery in Ojai. That's all I know.
Christine Schiefer: I know nothing about Ojai. I know more about Ohio, but that's not very exciting.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] O-J...
Christine Schiefer: Hey, O-J. [laughter] Yeah, A-I. It's completely different.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So yeah, Ojai Valley, in 1948, there was a brush fire that swept through the area and it burned for four days, and they say that it took over 30,000 acres, 13 houses were destroyed and somehow no people were harmed. There's no documentation of people dying in this. At least it seems that nobody was harmed, but the local legend is that a father and son died in the fire. And they were said to live on the outskirts of Ojai at the end of a long dirt road, and that section of road is still said to be incredibly haunted. Umm, but because they were at the end of a road and the fire was coming up on them, they got basically backed into the mountains and they were trapped, and so they ends up...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Dying from the fire. Both suffered from pretty severe burns that left them unrecognizable. Umm, the boy allegedly survived. But the father did not. And then after that, I mean, I think that's just an easy legend to go after when you're in high school and you know there was a fire decades ago, it's like, oh, maybe someone survived and now they haunt the area.
Christine Schiefer: And there's like the abandoned road that's haunted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels very teen...
Em Schulz: It, it's easy. It's easy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: But umm, then the legends like kind of divulges into multiple variants. Actually, the Ojai Valley News, I think. Ojai Valley News, they said that uh, these days, up to like 50 different versions of the story have been told, so there's no one...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: Origin anymore. But the original thought of like what the origin story would be is that the the boy... I don't know how old he is, I don't know if he's actually a boy or a young man, but he was so distraught about his father dying in the fire that it drove him to madness immediately and refusing to accept the fact that he just lost his father. He tried to save his father by removing the burns, hey kids, peeling off his skin.
Christine Schiefer: Aaaahh. What the fuck?
Em Schulz: And apparently when that didn't work, he really fully went insane and hung his father from a tree by his ankles where the body was later found after the fire.
Christine Schiefer: Whooo. What?
Em Schulz: Again, this is... There is no documentation of this. This is the story that people told.
Christine Schiefer: This is like the urban legend. This is like the urban legend.
Em Schulz: Okay. So hopefully, this is not true.
Christine Schiefer: Please.
Em Schulz: When people found the boy later, who was also severely burned, they tried to run after him to bring him in for medical attention, but he fled into the hills, and there were multiple times where police or even like random residents tried to capture him, to bring him down to go get help, and he would just escape every single time. He didn't want help. Or he was either umm, ashamed of being seen or something like that, but he, he would always try to get away...
Christine Schiefer: Do we know... Is there like... Was he like really little or was he like a...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Teen boy? Okay.
Em Schulz: I'm saying boy, because that was what the sources would say, but it's... Again, it's an urban legend, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Who knows if this is... If it's real, we don't know an age and if it's not real, which it sounds like it probably isn't, then you just get to pick the age in your head.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: In my, in my mind, he's like 19, 20.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, okay. So like teenager. Older teenager.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: So anyway, yeah. The town the town would try to go save him or bring him to a hospital, but he would always run away from them, and then people began, uh, like after years of eventually him not showing up or people trying to help him, and they just kind of gave up and let him live in the hills and next to the ruins of his old home, enough time passed, nobody saw him for a while, and then people started reporting seeing the boy again, but he still looked just as severely injured as he did the day of the fire, so his skin looked freshly charred and yeah. Umm, another version of the story is that he never actually went insane. He never touched his father, he never made things, you know, accidentally worse for his father's condition, but he just happened to survive the wounds and was left severely scarred, and he was afraid of people gawking and so he just kinda hid away in the hills. Umm, not only would he have been afraid of gawking, but this is real, somehow, uh, he would have, he might have been afraid of being gawked at, at the time, but he might have also been avoiding going down and going into the public because the world at this moment still had ugly laws, umm, which is, that is real, so.
Christine Schiefer: Something you would arrest me for like an asshole.
Em Schulz: I literally... All I wanted to do is make a joke about this and then I was like, well, let me read on, and then I went, oh my God. But yes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. It's no longer funny.
Em Schulz: My first thought was immediately, I'm finding Christine for the last several years of my life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, wow. Hahaha. The Venmo at five cents at a time are going to start coming in.
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Swear to God.
Em Schulz: Why don't you... I have to figure out... Even if I charged you a penny for every second of my life for seven years, you owe me...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Such a dick.
Em Schulz: A fat check. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I sure do. I don't de, I don't deny it anymore.
Em Schulz: And late fees. So anyway...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Late fees. My interest is piling up.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So yeah. Ugly laws, I did not know were a real thing, but some cities literally forbid visibly disabled people from being in public, including those that were...
Christine Schiefer: For God's sake.
Em Schulz: This is a quote, including those that were diseased, maimed, mutilated or in any way deformed, so as to be an unsightly or disgusting object.
Christine Schiefer: Humans are fucking trash dude.
Em Schulz: Like we talk about pretty privilege today, but like... And then some people even have the nerve to be like, oh, pretty privilege isn't a thing. Okay, then you're fucking pretty, I get it. But like also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly like you just immediately admitted. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But to know that, I mean, you you can't deny that pretty privilege was a thing then, because they're literally being called unsightly disgusting objects.
Christine Schiefer: In fact, it's part of the law. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They will literally be fined and removed from the public, so that way you don't have to look at them, so.
Christine Schiefer: That's fucking crazy.
Em Schulz: Umm, so if you had... And I'm sure this became a slippery slope, at least in today's world, can you imagine how awful people would be with it, but like, if you had any scar, any blemish, I mean, think about the witch trials, if there was a freckle that someone didn't like about you, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Good point. They'll find something. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you had any scars in more severe cases, like if you had severe scarring, if you had missing limbs, if you have gone through, you know, as something that most people don't go through...
Christine Schiefer: Already a traumatizing event, you would think, and then...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anything going on that someone could clock...
Christine Schiefer: Now, you're being punished.
Em Schulz: Is now a fined, a fined offense. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: This started in the 1860s in San Francisco and ugly law... This is an article about the ugly laws. There's one statement in here that said, "As one treads our streets, the eye is shocked at the frequent appearance of maimed creatures whose audacity, whose audacity is only paralleled by the hideous-ness of their deformities."
Christine Schiefer: You have the nerve to speak of audacity, sir?
Em Schulz: It's breathtaking. It's breathtaking.
Christine Schiefer: It is out of control. Get a fucking grip dude.
Em Schulz: And so especially, I feel like I didn't see this coming, but California was especially militant and enforcing these laws with injured veterans on the street, and literally arresting them just to take them out of the public, so others didn't have to see them.
Christine Schiefer: This is like gets more and more stunning by the second in the worst way.
Em Schulz: Ugly laws only ended in 1974.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! I mean, I'm sure they were probably like more just... I hope at least more like obsolete by then, but still.
Em Schulz: I hope it was one of those laws where it's like you can't go to an ice cream shop on a Thursday with a $5 bill in your left pocket. Like, I hope it was something...
Christine Schiefer: Indianapolis, you can't have an ice cream cone in your back pocket on a Sunday.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's like literally one of the laws. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I I hope that... I hope that it's a lot like that, but the fact that like... I mean, imagine, by the way, my mom in 1974 was 12, so primo puberty stage, just imagine getting bullied, being like, they're gonna arrest you for being so ugly.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I mean, it's hard enough being 14. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Come on. Umm, yeah. Only ended in 1974.
Christine Schiefer: Linda was like, that would never have happened to me. I was real pretty, and I still am.
Em Schulz: She'll tell me all about it on our cruise next week. Umm, so... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So if this is a real story, keep in mind that historically at the time, and it was in California, was where ugly laws even started, and he is in California, he might have really just not wanted to like... It's not just gawking that he was afraid of. He was afraid of being fucking arrested for looking the way he did, for going through a traumatic event. So this is why I was already so grossed out about doing this episode because I'm like the whole legend is someone who's probably just a fucking burn victim like a survivor...
Christine Schiefer: It's rough. It's really rough.
Em Schulz: Of a fucking house fire where he just watched his father die in front of him. Which like, thank God, this probably isn't true, but even the imaginary version, I'm like, this poor man, it just doesn't feel right. It just doesn't do right.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Umm, so, but also because I was a shitty teenager, I probably would have eaten this shit up. I would have been like, oh, this is amazing. Like this, like we have a local legend in our town. Hahaha.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, 'cause the kids love shit like this.
Em Schulz: And now as an adult, I'm like, oh my God. I, like I would be such a square to the kids in the neighborhood now.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I feel like we've really become those grown-ups who are like, well, you know, it's not really very respectful.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know!
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: I know. My, myself at 14 would be like, get out of here you old coot and like, just like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You freaking loser...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I would have been, oh my God, I was such a piece of shit. Okay, so.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sometimes I think back and I'm like, if I could talk to 14-year-old me, what would I do? And it's like, honestly, I would... I would volunteer to not be in that room immediately, I don't want to be there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yes. I agree with you. We'd be in a different room and we'd lock the door to avoid ourselves. Yeah.
Em Schulz: [laughter] If 14-year-old me heard about ugly laws, that would have been my quickest insult on people. I would... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would be so screwed. You would have destroyed me dude. You would have fucking destroyed me.
Em Schulz: I, I don't know how my mom did it, I'm sorry mom. So anyway, because he kept from... Kept hidden away from society, the lore about him became more mysterious and people began to fear him even more like why would he come down? Why won't he go get help? Why won't he like appear in front of us? Like why is he just hiding in the woods? And then it became this thing where there's this creepy man that, you know, just by the way, is like just going through it, like is probably has a whole new load of insecurities about his appearance.
Christine Schiefer: And he's like off the grid which adds to like the kind of mystique.
Em Schulz: And like, and like, he's like gone through a trauma where he's got no friends to talk to. He has probably not healed inward on this. [chuckle] So like he's... There's just...
Christine Schiefer: I would say probably not. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's just a recluse in the worst way, and it's just prime material for this town to go, we've got a creepy man in the woods.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: There's even a former cop named Sergeant Klasmer, who, uh, he used to be part of Ojai PD, and he recalls getting reports all the time in the '60s about the Char-Man. I guess, there was a hang-out point there, literally called the point, and teenagers would report always seeing "An awful looking creature who looked charred and burned to a crisp." And they said that they would see him in raggedy scorched clothes, he smelled like burned skin. Umm, this was near... At the time, it was called Shelf Road, and I think it's changed since. But it became the spot. This was like the dead end where he lived before he died. It became the spot where people often saw him, eventually more people near this area would start calling the cops about this injured man, all their kids were claiming to see, which... That would be me. Now, I'm like, are you telling me you saw a burn victim who probably needed help? Like, I'm calling the police.
Christine Schiefer: Right, and you just screamed and ran away. Yeah, exactly. It's like, we should do something probably.
Em Schulz: Well, even more fucked up, there are some sources that say, these people were actually seeing an injured man, and their parents finally called for like the police to go find this injured man, and they ended up finding an actual person and not the Char-Man who was struggling with his own condition to change his appearance, but a different person in town dealing with that, because apparently there was a neighbor who kind of like kept away and didn't talk to a lot of people, so nobody knew who he was. He had some visible skin cancer, and he was out walking his dog, and a bunch of times apparently the cops would get called and they would just find him walking his dog at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. Oh geez.
Em Schulz: And he was also probably scared of people gawking at him, so he would only walk his dog at night, but it was near a bunch of mean teenagers at the point, and so now he just has to constantly be reminded of his own situation.
Christine Schiefer: He can't even live his life right. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Like usually, I try to like bring comedy to this, but this is fucking wrong, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, welcome to my fucking world.
Em Schulz: I know, I hate it, umm, but...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's rough times.
Em Schulz: But some thought he must be different than the Char-Man because they were reporting seeing like a literal man fried to a crisp, he did not have a dog, he had fresh wounds everywhere, this guy just has something going on on his face, not on his entire body. And so people were like, oh, they're just two different people that are probably struggling in similar ways. [chuckle] And so, the the cops' explanation for it was that like, oh, it's just another person in town, like it's it's dark, maybe since your teenager is hanging out in the middle of the night where you shouldn't be, maybe you're drinking, so like it seems like a more of an urban legend kind of thing to you, but like you just keep reporting this random man trying to walk his dog. But they swore, they were like, no, no, no, we keep saying this other monster, and people started doubling down on the Char-Man legend, just so it would be more believable by saying, not only does he look a certain way, but instead of just stalking us from... Instead of just lurking around, now he's stalking people, he's chasing people...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh, so he's becoming a villain now?
Em Schulz: Yes. And it was because the actual villains, teenagers, were not being believed with our own fake story, and so they're like, no, we're gonna make it sound worse so you actually care.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they would say he, they were nearby camp sites that he would stalk and he would stare into people's tents and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: New origins started to pick up. One of the the stories that stuck about how the Char-Man came to be, was that during that fire, it wasn't his father who died, but his wife who was burned to death, which like, if you've actually been in a fucking traumatic ass fire, like this is a horrible, like... Anyway, umm, he thought, he, the story is that his wife burned to death and he tried to save her, and so then a new part, so now a new part of the lore, if you're a cool teenager hanging out on the bridge by this road. The thing would be to go over to where his old house was and to yell help as if you're his wife...
Christine Schiefer: Stop!
Em Schulz: And hope that he'll come running after you thinking that you're his wife and he wants to save you.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Is this not like the saddest fucking...
Christine Schiefer: What's wrong with people?
Em Schulz: This is, I mean, it's just cruel. It's just so cruel.
Christine Schiefer: It's so cruel.
Em Schulz: And so then, they turn it like into like this like bunny man bridge thing of like, oh, you know, once you hear him running after you, you better run, 'cause once he finds out you are not his wife, he's gonna be mad and he's gonna chase you down and attack you. So it's like, no matter what, like so you're just going to lure someone in based on their trauma, and then you have the nerve to run when they get pissed off that you did it, like why are you even doing this to begin with?
Christine Schiefer: This is infuriating really, is what it is.
Em Schulz: Apparently, when he realizes that you're not his wife, he will chase you down and hurt you, which honestly, I'd fucking do it too. If...
Christine Schiefer: Same.
Em Schulz: I don't blame him. Umm, one boy claimed that this happened and he narrowly escaped after the Char-Man grabbed him by his jacket, but he like ran out of his jacket and and kept moving and he survived.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: In the 1960s, the stories became so big about the Char-Man in town that cops had to do several in a row overnights by this bridge and by this old road to shoo away kids who were trying to get on the bridge to yell for help and pretend that they were his wife.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, so this is really out of control.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Years later, a man ended up claiming to be the one that pulled the jacket off of the local boy at the bridge instead of it being like the Char-Man, and this boy escaped somehow, because he said that he and, he said that he and his friends knew the children were... It's like, he was like an older teenager, and he was trying to get the younger teenagers doing the not so cool thing of screaming. He was...
Christine Schiefer: He was a bad influence.
Em Schulz: He was like, p if they're gonna look for the Char-Man, I'm gonna dress up in a mask and be the Char-Man, and any time someone comes up and like screams for help, I'm just gonna bull-rush them and give them the story of their life. So...
Christine Schiefer: And scare the shit out of them, right? Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes. So he claimed that he was that guy; however, the cops disputed that version, it was like, they were like, that guy's bragging about something he didn't even do, here's what really happened. Apparently at some point, there was a guy walking nearby and he was not aware of the the lore in town, and he heard children literally crying for help on the bridge...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit!
Em Schulz: And so he came running to save them, but then the kids that were on the bridge actually heard the mysterious eerie footsteps running up to them...
Christine Schiefer: Someone running. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So then they took off and he just kept running and running and running to try to catch up to them and tried to grab one of them...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: By the arm to be like, what's going on? And then the kid ran out of the jacket and the guy gave up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so it's like, oh, are you okay? But like he doesn't realize they're running from him now.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. What a mess.
Em Schulz: Anyway. Allegedly, sheriffs resolved the situation some time in the '60s and considered it a situation that wasn't a big deal anymore, but people still claim to see the Char-Man today. Many reports have, uh, especially shown up, there's nearby stables in town, I guess, if there's a winery on 'Brothers and Sisters' there's like a bunch of stables, it feels like horseback riding and wine go together in Ojai.
Christine Schiefer: That fits. Yeah, I agree with like those pretty hills and stuff. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So a lot of people who either work at the stables or are visiting there will claim to see somebody out in the hills staring at them. Umm, personally, I think maybe it's like another employee who has ridden the horse a little too far or something, and like [chuckle] just looking at how far he's gotta get back home.
Christine Schiefer: He's just lurking.
Em Schulz: And a... So anyway, they all say that they see a person staring at them, and the stories kinda grew out of that, again, that there's a creepy guy out by these stables, and so people started calling the company before they went in for their their ride, or like if they had a tour scheduled about like a horseback riding tour scheduled. They were calling them being like, "We're hearing these weird things about this guy, like is this even a safe place to go?" So now the business is suffering. Umm, and even if it wasn't Char-Man, some people thought like, maybe there's just a random stalker that is nearby...
Christine Schiefer: Like a creeper. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, should I leave my stuff at the stables when we go horseback riding or is someone gonna take my shit?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so, these days he's thought of more as like a ghost than a real man, honestly, because now he would be dead or a really old man, so...
Christine Schiefer: Or close. Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: So I think at this point, Char-Man exists, it's turned into a ghost out of of necessity. And the bridge that people see him on is now sometimes known by locals as the Char-Man bridge. And...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Apparently, the new advice for this lore, the advice should be don't fucking do it. But the new advice is now that cars are a bigger thing.
Christine Schiefer: Honk, [laughter] I knew, I knew it. I was like, finally, you have a perfect prop.
Em Schulz: Finally, umm.
Christine Schiefer: You can expense it now. You've used it as part of the show.
Em Schulz: Great. I can't, I'll, I'll, I'll do my, uh, my, my paperwork on that later. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, great. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But so, uh, now that cars were a bigger thing, uh, or that everyone, I guess has more access to one, people now suggest that instead of just walking up to the bridge and screaming for help, you drive your car. That way if you hear him running, you can out, out race him. And...
Christine Schiefer: Aha. Okay. You're like safer almost.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. But if he's still, because now that he's like a ghost, so maybe he's more like supernatural in some way. Now, some people say he can still out chase your car.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he can just Follow you home. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. I mean, I didn't even think about that. He could follow you home. Or, what they say is that if he catches up to your moving car, he will punch out the windows, grab you from your seat and skin you alive. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice. [laughter] What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Once he's a ghost, I guess anything's possible. So some People...
Christine Schiefer: I guess so, you can really make the story your own. What, how beautiful... What a beautiful creative exercise for everybody.
Em Schulz: I know. Uh, so some have changed his appearance in stories. Some claim that he's not a Char-Man anymore, but he's actually just fully engulfed in flames, still on fire. And if he catches you, then you will catch on fire. So that's a fun thought.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Umm, some also have changed his origin story again, that maybe he was in a fiery car crash. That's probably just as technology advanced. They just try to keep the story fresh. Umm, but so, or they also say maybe he was a firefighter who died in the brush fire, but there are no documented casualties on record of that fire. Including Char-Man himself. So, uh, people say that Char-Man now even poses as a hitchhiker to get close to you. So whatever the new thing is to keep people scared is what they tell.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like they're just making him into this villain. Like he didn't wanna, he was just hiding from everyone. Now they're like, he wants to skin you alive. It's like, wait, since when?
Em Schulz: And the irony is like, if this guy was real and he was trying to hide from everybody, it was because he was probably so nervous about how people would treat him because...
Christine Schiefer: Like scared and ashamed. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But like, there's these ugly laws out there. And so maybe he was even thinking, I'm doing them a service and then, and they're still...
Christine Schiefer: Like I'm just gonna stay out of everyone's way. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And now they're still down there being like, he's a literal fucking monster. Like what?
Christine Schiefer: Like, he's gonna get us. I mean, it sounds very just like every other urban legend of like the witch down the road or like the Frankenstein monster. Like they're hiding from us, but we're gonna go, go after them anyway. I don't know. It feels, it feels exactly like all those stories.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I shouldn't be surprised, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So whatever the truth is, umm, maybe let's just not mock burn victims by pretending to be their dead wife that they watch die in front of them. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I know that's super fun to do.
Em Schulz: Just in case that actually does happen. You know.
Christine Schiefer: I know that's like a really fun activity, guys. I know. I know how fun it is. But like, let's, can we not?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, it, yeah. So that's where I wanna give the PSA that, although I was a teenager once, I understand that your, umm, your brain is not fully developed and therefore you have not probably thought it through. But in case someone likes to pretend that they're more advanced and they're edgier than everybody else, maybe you can pass this along to your fellow teenagers that this story only promotes the idea that people with disabilities and or if they're survivors of trauma, they are in subway monsters, despite having already gone through something you can't fathom. So shut the fuck up. That's the PSA.
Christine Schiefer: That's beautiful, Em.
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: Beautifully said.
Em Schulz: Fun fact though. The town has really, uh, leaned into the Char-Man thing. And so now their in town is Char-Man hot sauce, a Char-Man rock band. And there is, there was nearly at one point a burger stand called Char-Man. And, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Nearly a...
Em Schulz: Nearly.
Christine Schiefer: Nearly.
Em Schulz: Somewhat, someone decided that they didn't wanna do it, probably 'cause they realized it would be a fucked up thing to do. Umm, but I get, I get the word char for char grilled burgers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Hot sauce...
Em Schulz: I see, I see the play on Words.
Christine Schiefer: Burgers.
Em Schulz: I'm not, I'm not blind to the, to the play on words. Umm, but yeah, I think they backed out and I am okay with that. Umm, and then the last fun fact is that Ojai actually does have several ghosts in the area, like actual ghosts plus Cryptids, including a pony sized phantom dog and a 20-foot bat. And, uh, if you would like to go on a haunted tour of Ojai, you, they host Ghost Tours every now and then. I heard that they host Ghost Tours literally in a van, which just makes it extra awful to me, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I'm like on horseback? No, in a van. The opposite of on horseback.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine Christine going to a, like a bunch of wine tastings in Ojai then getting on a horse to hear about a 20-foot bat.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Something is so bad to look for that fucking bat. It would not end well for anybody involved. Let's all be real.
Em Schulz: I think that's why they have a van. I think they're like, these people are too fucked up. We're just gonna drive around, so.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, Christine ruined it for everyone else. Yeah. I get it. I'm sorry about that.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's Char-Man. That's Char-Man. And if you would like to, uh, be invested in something similar, but not similar that you can totally love and, and not feel weird about, Charmander is a very special Pokemon, especially with Christine.
Christine Schiefer: That's right, that's right. I love Charmander. He is my favorite Pokemon. Umm, he was always, I always played Pokemon Red on my Game Boy, so.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Nice.
Christine Schiefer: That was always my go-to, umm, wow. Em, I could not have even slightly envisioned what you'd be discussing today. So, uh, thank you for the wonderful surprise.
Em Schulz: I'm excited to be done.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it's kind of weird 'cause you know, at least if you remember, you know what I'm gonna talk about today.
Em Schulz: I'm so excited and excited and you know, what, how whatever the most, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Apropos way is, but...
Christine Schiefer: Of course, because a, a a two-parter is rough. I know. I know it. 'cause I listen to a lot of podcasts and I get so upset and then I do it to people. So the cycle continues and I'm sorry, but it was just, we were at two and a half hours and I was like...
Em Schulz: We were two part never wins.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] This is getting out of control, so we're gonna get back into it. Umm, we are talking about 8 Passengers, the story of the Franke family, Ruby Franke in particular. Uh, and if anybody missed the last part one, uh, go listen to 375 because that is where I cover part one and it is crucial to the rest of the story. Umm, so let's jump right back into it. The last thing I told you guys is that, uh, that, uh, this woman, Jodi Hildebrant was providing marriage counseling for Ruby and Kevin, uh, Ruby and her husband Kevin. And she was also allegedly potentially providing counseling to Chad before he was sent away to that like teen Wilderness camp. And now, from the outside, it looked as though Kevin and Chad, uh, had both moved out separately. And Jodi was now living with Ruby and the remaining four children. And if you'll recall on the body cam footage, when they get to the house, it's not Ruby Franke who opens the door, it's Jodi Hildebrant.
Em Schulz: Jodi.
Christine Schiefer: And so, yeah. So we can kind of gather now that she was living at the house with the children. So Jo Jodi's just fucking trash. All right, let's get into it. Umm, Ruby, I just don't know how else to say it. She's just, it's just bad. It's just like a tornado of bad. So as things sort of devolved, and I kind of briefly mentioned that Ruby had announced June of 2022, that she was leaving YouTube to begin on work, to begin working on a new project with Jodi Hildebrant. So she was actually leaving this like very lucrative YouTube channel to do her own thing. And people were like, what does that even mean? Like, are you starting a new channel? Nobody quite understood what was going on until Ruby started featuring on Jodi's channel, which was called ConneXions with an X in the middle.
Em Schulz: So cool.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, [chuckle] so cool. So it's ConneXion with a capital X. Umm, stupid. And ConneXions is an online therapy and life coaching program. And Jodi runs this thing, it's her channel. And Ruby starts getting heavily invested and involved. And suddenly it's as though Ruby and Jodi's personal and professional lives were like completely intermingled, completely intertwined. And as viewers are kind of watching this, they're like, where are the kids? Like, are they okay? Like, Ruby suddenly obsessed with this Jodi person, and like, we don't see the kids anymore. Umm, and it came out later that Jodi had apparently completely integrated herself into the Franke marriage, like into Ruby and Kevin's marriage. And would...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Literally go on dates with them, like would be the third wheel?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: On all of their activities as a couple. Like she...
Em Schulz: Are they like Holly? Like is she queer or something?
Christine Schiefer: No, she's their mar, their more L LDS. They're, she's their "life coach and marital counselor". But she's just like so involved.
Em Schulz: So At the very least it implies, yeah. At the very least it implies that like, are they, like her marriage is not doing well for them to need a life coach that often?
Christine Schiefer: Basically. So she basically gets a very, I don't know, it's kind of a mix. It's like on the one hand, yeah, she joined, she met Ruby as her like "therapist", and I mean, she was a licensed therapist, but her, her therapist and her life coach or whatever. But then also Ruby got really into ConneXions as a business. And so suddenly it's like Ruby and Jodi are like BFFs and also Jodi's like suddenly part of the marriage. And it's almost like Ruby got so invested in this random person that she like brought her into the fold of her whole family life. Umm, but I mean, you're also right in that the marriage was falling apart because they had brought this lady in and she's suddenly like at all of their dates and at dinner and staying at the, living at the house.
Em Schulz: Is Jodi like cool with this? Like she's as invested as being like up their ass as Ruby Franke is into it.
Christine Schiefer: I Mean, yeah, she moved right on in. She moved. I mean, think about it like, Ruby's this like probably multimillionaire YouTube personality, and Jodi's trying to get her channel off the ground. And suddenly this like, woman who has this huge clout and all these followers and all this money says like, come on, I want you to be like, it's almost like, like Jodi was a therapist and Ruby said, I'll take you, I'll be your like patron. Like you can come be just our family therapist. Like, we, come live under our roof. We'll take you in. And you're now like our dedicated counselor sort of.
Em Schulz: I, maybe, maybe you answer this later, but knowing abuse happens, uh, you know, comes out in the story, I would at some point, if you can answer it. Does, was Jodi complicit from day one or did she feel...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, 'cause I was wondering like...
Christine Schiefer: 100%
Em Schulz: Did she, did she feel like she, you know, is trying to get her channel off the ground? She found someone with clouts, so now she's kind of just like leaning into this, but she's like, not even, 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: No, She's bad news. She's, she's bad news from day one.
Em Schulz: Okay. I didn't know if like...
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like Ruby...
Em Schulz: Got stuck in this.
Christine Schiefer: Nope. Ruby and Jodi like, saw each other and were like, cool. We can be the worst parts of ourselves and we'll, like each other.
Em Schulz: Terrible therapist, she's been disbarred. Yes. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, she has lost, uh, I think disbarred is for lawyers, but...
Em Schulz: For lawyers.
Christine Schiefer: She has lost her license. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay, cool. That's what I wanted to know.
Christine Schiefer: Thankfully. Umm, so yes, basically we find out later, Jodi had completely integrated herself into the Franke marriage, uh, before Kevin moved out, tagging along on their dates, et cetera. And eventually Kevin does move out and Jodi stays in the house. So it's, it's like Kevin leaves, and now she's almost like the replacement parent replacement grownup. Umm, her license, license had already been put on probation once because a patient had reported her for violating privacy ethics. Uh, she was a therapist heavily involved in the Mormon Church, and she was counseling this man. And she had apparently turned around and shared, uh, confidential sensitive information about this man to the Mormon Church. And he was actually expelled from Brigham Young University because she shared this information. And according to this patient, the information wasn't even true. It was a lie. Uh, she apparently was accused of lying about many of her patients.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she would hold these group therapy sessions as part of her marriage counseling practice, and she would separate. So this, uh, will also probably answer your question a little bit. She would separate the man and woman. Umm, and, and to be clear, this is like in the LDS church, so these are very heterosexual oriented therapy, you know, angles that she's taking. So she would separate men and women, and then, umm, she would turn around and tell the other partner, like, oh, your husband admitted to, uh, watching, having a sex addiction and watching porn. Like she would make stuff up to kind of sow seeds of, of discord in a marriage. And she broke up many relationships. She lied about people. It was like, she's just this toxic leech, I don't even know the right word for it, but she would shame people in front of their peers, umm, according to the men.
Christine Schiefer: And she like really went after the men. Uh, one of them, for example, admitted he had one time looked at porn, which was like, not allowed in the Mormon Church. And so, she accused him of having a sex addiction and being a pedophile, even though like there was no pedophilia involved in this porn or anything. Umm, and so she really knew how to blow up people's lives. And she would turn around and tell them Mormon Church. And then these people would be like, these men would be excommunicated from the church and be expelled from the school because she would say, oh, he has a sex addiction. And it's like he, the, the one guy I'm referencing came out on that, umm, I believe it was a 2020 documentary, and essentially said, "I told her like one or two private things." And I mean, it wasn't even anything "that bad", right?
Christine Schiefer: It was like, he one time was interested by porn or something. And of course, you know, that didn't go over well. And so it, it blew up his whole life. 'Cause she turned around and told, uh, his university, he told the church, his wife left him. And, uh, essentially her former patients had already gotten her temporarily, uh, put on probation, so to speak. And she got it back eventually. And despite the fact that her former patients said, uh, that they were not only like losing marriages and relationships, but also traumatized by this. Because she is going around like blabbing. Like imagine what your, if your therapist just went around and told everybody in your life what you said, you know, it's just like a, such a shocking concept.
Em Schulz: Well, they, she would just say that I have a bunch of mugs, but, umm.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Honestly, I love that you're getting ahead of the, the downfall.
Em Schulz: The crisis. Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Like, you're like, yeah. You're like, I know what's gonna happen. I don't, I don't need PR. I'm gonna get ahead of this thing.
Em Schulz: You know, what's wild is, like...
Christine Schiefer: And tell everyone before she can.
Em Schulz: Honestly, with Jordan, I feel like I, sometimes I'm like, I mean, she's very helpful. This is me like making like a bit of a joke about it, but I'm like, sometimes I'm like, why do I even have private paid sessions? You could just listen to the podcast and everything, you know, is right there for free. Like, 'cause I'm like, I, I don't have anything. I'm like really pouring my guts out on that. I haven't like, just said very openly on this show. So I'm, like can you just send me back...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we we're kind of an open book.
Em Schulz: Can you just send me back a report based on what you saw in each of these episodes? And...
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, anybody listening who is a therapist, I feel like you probably could and maybe have kind of diagnosed and assessed what's going on here. Like I bet you you could really, if you really listen to every single episode, you probably know more about me than I ever will, you know, as a therapist. Like, I can't imagine.
Em Schulz: Oh, truly. I I do also wonder, umm, in the story that this does not have anything to do with it, but my brain won't stop thinking about it. Is there speculation on Jodi's sexuality?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure. Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Okay. Because she seems to be a real man hating, desperate to crawl up Ruby Franke's little button just live there.
Christine Schiefer: So that's 1 million bajillion percent.
Em Schulz: Sounds like she's pretty repressed. Okay. Just checking.
Christine Schiefer: Repressed is a great word. Especially considering the construct of the Mormon Church under which, inside which she operates allegedly to try to help people save their marriages. And hmm, weird doesn't do that. So yes, you're absolutely right. That is a, that is massive speculation. People discuss, umm, not massive speculation, but it's a massive like plot point, not plot point even, I don't know the right word, but it is, definitely something.
Em Schulz: It Is speculation and a, it's a speculation and a plot point for me for sure in my head.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Yes. So it's, it's a, you're not alone in that.
Em Schulz: You sound pretty single for someone who was telling everyone how to have a relationship and also to marry.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yes, precisely. There's a lot of, uh, there's been a lot of kind of side eye, like, does anyone else think what I'm thinking? You know, umm, and we'll even get more into the sexuality of it in a little bit, which is interesting. So she had these like traumatized patients in her past who had event, who had temporarily gotten her license suspended, but now she is running her channel, umm, and she has full ownership of this channel, and she can kind of do whatever kind of life coaching she wants. She's not under the rules of, uh, therapy and laws and the, you know, psychological association. So she has her own channel with her own rules, and suddenly Ruby Franke is there to like, help monetize it, like basically pay her, like patronize her to get this thing moving.
Christine Schiefer: And it got to the point that Ruby actually left her home in Springville with Jodi and her two youngest children to move to this house in Ivans that we discussed early on in the story where, uh, the young boy starts running from door to door, uh, looking for help. And so this situation, umm, got out of control very fast. Umm, she moves with Jodi and the two youngest to live four hours south in Ivans. She leaves the two teenage daughters alone at the house in Springville and just leaves them there. Uh, and it probably would've gone on like this for years if that second youngest Franke child who was, uh, around 12 at the time, rang that doorbell in, in August of 2023. And of course, once they learned that there is another child in danger, definitely potentially deceased in the home because of just looking at how badly this child in front of them has been, uh, abused.
Christine Schiefer: They do an emergency search of Jodi's home. And when they burst in and Jodi says, you need a warrant. And they're like, no ma'am, we sure don't get out of the fucking way. Uh, they start looking and at first they don't see anything until they look into a closet in one of the bedrooms and find a 10-year-old girl who is in there alone. She is too afraid to move or speak. She's completely frozen. And just like her older brother, she's emaciated, she's wounded, her head has been shaved into a buzz cut. She's fucking 10 years old.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She's like the baby of the family. So first responders cannot get her to kind of trust them or, or talk to them. They buy her pizza. They're trying to win her trust over and, and convince her that she's safe now. But she's been so badly traumatized, umm, that she just stays in the closet. They, they give her the pizza, she eats the entire large pizza herself. Then they get her a second pizza and she eats half of the entire large second pizza.
Em Schulz: Oh, girl was hungry.
Christine Schiefer: And they, I know it's fucking tragic. And then they give her a milkshake and she finally, after several hours of like building, it's, it's like a wounded animal, right? Like they're just trying to get, coax her out and convince her that they're not gonna harm her. And so after four hours, she's finally willing to get up, leave the closet, and be evaluated by EMTs. And I just imagine as like the detective or the officers there who were trying to like coax her out and some of them had kids of their own and they're like, it was just the most surreal, heartbreaking, you know, trying to tell this girl she's safe and she just doesn't trust anyone. Why should she, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so she's finally, uh, convinced to get out of the closet and come be evaluated medically and investigators then receive because now they found the other child, they now receive a warrant to begin collecting other evidence throughout the house. And as they're looking, thank God. Yeah. So they're looking through before any, you know, any of the adults can hide anything. Umm, and so they find ropes, they find handcuffs, a black pair and a silver pair, which the 12-year-old boy had described as what they were being held captive in. Umm, and just to like, if anyone's wondering in the 2020 documentary, the my, because they're children, they're referred to by their first initials, which are R and E. And so I'm just gonna continue doing that, umm, to keep their privacy somewhat intact, you know. Umm, so during the search, Ruby arrives at the house. She was not at the house when police initially got there. And she was made to sit and wait while this search continues for hours. And...
Em Schulz: She had to know she was so fucked. Like, or did she think she was getting away with this?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like at that moment, they're like, sit down and she just has to sit there and watch as they like, tear apart her house and find everything exactly. That she knows is gonna land her in deep shit. And meanwhile, three and a half hours north, her two teenage daughters are located, they're also minors. So it's like, like she's just abandoning these two up there. And their older sister, Shari, who I had mentioned the oldest, the eldest who's at, uh, BYU, is able to tell police, like, go check on my sisters. They're at the other house in Springville. And luckily, when police arrived there, the, the girls seemed unharmed, but because they were minors, Child Protective Services took them into custody, uh, pending the investigation of their younger siblings condition. That afternoon, both Ruby and Jodi were arrested, and Ruby was strangely stoic, like very quiet. Umm, while police searched the house, she just sat in complete silence. Umm, she never asked where her children were. She never asked if they were safe. She said nothing. She's just complete utter silence. And...
Em Schulz: She knew she was, again, she had to know she was so fucked. She was like, there's nothing to say. There's nothing I can do.
Christine Schiefer: Part of me, part of me is surprised because I feel like someone like that, would try their darnedest to talk their way out of it. But so, so you're, what you're, you're saying is right. Like she must have really known she was fucked, 'cause she didn't say a damn word. And I imagine she's tried to talk her way out of everything left and right for years, and now she knows she can't say anything. It's, it's disturbing. And meanwhile, R the boy, 12-year-old boys in the hospital, and he starts telling caseworkers and police about the horrific abuse he had faced. Very disturbing. He said, Jodi and Ruby, uh, had been inflicting this abuse on the children for a long time. He was often made, for example, to jump outside on a trampoline for hours a day in the hot burning sun as punishment. Umm, on his last birthday, his 12th birthday, he was forced to stand out in the desert sun for 12 hours on the trampoline. Just stand there.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: As punishment on his 12th birthday.
Em Schulz: And by The way, like, I mean, I mean, this is such a small thing to not even, it's a non considerate at this point, but like, to stand on a trampoline and not solid ground is even so much more like, like your legs get shaky and like...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: That's like, I mean, yes, the heat, and yes, it's his birthday, and yes, I'm sure he's barefoot and it's extra painful, but like on top of it, think about like wobbly legs after 12 hours of trying to keep your balance on fabric, like.
Christine Schiefer: 100%. And, and going off that, he was sweating so much on the trampoline that the, there was a, a discoloration of sweat where he had stood for 12 hours. And investigators actually collected the trampoline surface as evidence, because it was just that obvious how horrific this had been. Umm, sometimes he was forced to collect trash at a cemetery with no shoes on. And, uh, again, they're out in the desert these days are so hot that he would come home, just his feet were completely blistered. Umm, his shoulders would be completely b, the skin would be completely blistered. Uh, it was so unusual that a passerby actually once took a video of him, uh, because they were like, "What is this this little boy out here with no shoes on? You know, in the cemetery. It's way too hot for him to be alone out here."
Christine Schiefer: And, umm, thankfully they were able to get, their police were able to get their hands on that video as well as evidence.
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, R was also forced to sleep outside. So Ruby told him he had to repent for his sins. That's why he was forced to sleep outside. And she said otherwise, you'd be sent to jail for being so evil or what have you. You know, she's like putting this fear in him. And one night R decided, I'd rather be in jail instead.
Em Schulz: Good job.
Christine Schiefer: You know, rather than here. Yeah. So he decides he's gonna walk there, walk there himself, and because he is already sleeping outside, he just got up and walked away. And he he wrote a note to his mom in Pebbles to tell her where he had gone.
Em Schulz: Went to jail.
Christine Schiefer: Went, walked myself to the local jail. It's so sad. And when Ruby noticed him missing in the middle of the night, 'cause she kept tabs on the kids that closely, she and Jodi drove out and found him walking alone down the road. And because of this incident, she and Jodi began handcuffing him inside, uh, to, to exercise weights like heavy dumbbells and other objects to prevent him from escaping the house.
Em Schulz: And Also like how, like, it just reminds you that there is like an innocent child in there because he was like, I can't stand this abuse anymore. I'm escaping. And then still wrote a letter to his mom.
Christine Schiefer: Told his mom where he was going.
Em Schulz: Like, had he not done that, he might've gotten away longer or something, but like, you're, he still just wanted tell his mom.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that was my first thought as well, is like, to, to not even consider lying to your mom about it, you know? It's just, it's really heartbreaking. So Ruby and Jodi, uh, ran a horrible campaign of dehumanization on these children. They, they shaved E's head as punishment. They doused her in water. Uh, both children were watched closely while they took showers. Investigators discovered a journal in the house in which Ruby chronicled all the abuse and psychological torment. She and Jodi were inflicting on the children. And she wrote all this down, not because she like knew it was was evil, but because she truly believed that R and E her youngest kids had the, had demons inside them. Like it's, it's almost like one of these cults you see where parents start being convinced that other, that their partner, that their children have like demons and devils inside them. I feel like I, we've seen this in recent years quite a bit. Uh, and so apparently in the journal, Ruby said that she and Jodi believed R and E were both evil. They were liars and manipulators. They needed to be punished in order to be saved. Uh, for example, Ruby wrote "I told R that he emulates a snake. He slithers and sneaks around."
Christine Schiefer: I mean, this is a 12-year-old boy. You know, it's just heartbreaking. Uh, in addition to the psychological torment, there was, of course, there were signs of physical torture on the children as well. They had deep, deep wounds on their arms and legs from being bound. They had clearly been consistently deprived of food and water, especially as we saw with E and the pizzas. Kevin Franke, the dad, was brought in for questioning. And when investigators described the condition of his children, he said, "Oh, that sounds terrible."
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Jail. Yeah.
Em Schulz: On the comment alone, on the comment alone. Go away forever...
Christine Schiefer: Jail.
Em Schulz: Are you kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: But he also s, but he also said, but I love and trust Ruby, and I would not wanna say anything that might incriminate her. It's like you learn that your ex-partner is physically tormenting your own children, and you're like, I trust that she knows what's best.
Em Schulz: This does not justify any of it. But I am wondering, is he also a victim of her abuse and like, he's just used to silencing everything, or like trying to just like, ignore it? Or like?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I think...
Em Schulz: Just trying to figure out his motive.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, when we look back at all the years, like he and Ruby were a team. Taking the bed from the kids, sending them to wilderness camp, like they all did this together. So he's been part of it for many years. It's escalated incredibly, obviously.
Em Schulz: I can't, I can't imagine.
Christine Schiefer: But it sounds like, he's not that shocked.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I can't imagine seeing it and going, oh, how about that? What? Like, that's fucking crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that wild?
Em Schulz: So then that makes me also think that he was not a victim. I mean, 'cause it could be either, either he is like too afraid to say something, or it's like so typical Tuesday for him that he is like, this isn't a problem.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's just normalized in their family, you know? I mean, of course he's like, wow, that's too bad. I'm so sorry that that happened. But, you know, I trust Ruby and I think she knows what's best. So like, obviously you're not that sorry for what happened, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, because Ruby was arrested, of course, this became national news very quickly due to her fame, due to her notoriety, her channel's notoriety. And it was the moment thousands of strangers, including myself included, had been waiting for this moment for years. Umm, but, you know, nothing that any of these onlookers felt could compare to what Shari, the old, the eldest daughter felt, because she posted to her Instagram story, "Finally" She was so relieved. And listen, she was a victim of the abuse as well, you know, and she was like, "I've been trying to get, take them down for years."
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she said she, alongside her extended family, had been trying to make this happen, had been trying to get legal attention, you know, police to the house, and nothing she did worked. Finally, finally, she had, uh, a little bit of justice. And right after that post, she also requested privacy and respect for her youngest siblings. And, you know, in addition to Jodi's arrest making headlines, it also brought to light new allegations of abuse in Jodi's previous life. So this is kind of where we get to more of the messiness of Jodi and like her history.
Em Schulz: Great. So let's go.
Christine Schiefer: So, yes. So this one young person named Jesse, who uses they them pronouns. Thank you for normalizing pronouns. Jesse, umm, who was a thirt, or who is not 30 years old anymore, I'm assuming 31, 32.
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 30-year-old tattoo artist and musician from Seattle, uh, came forward to tell their story, uh, once Jodi had been arrested. So, Jesse had grown up in California with three siblings, and their family was part of the Mormon Church, just like the Franke children. And in an interview, Jesse described themselves as a teenager with words like devout, but curious, angry and angsty, you know. And I think a lot of us can relate to that, just like that, yeah, angsty feeling of like, feeling confined, especially with like organized religion and, you know, trying to find your identity and feeling like you're being boxed in. Umm, and their teenage rebellion was fairly run of the mill. Like there wasn't anything out of control compared to like an average teenager. But, you know, they're in this very strict faith. And so anything that went against the grain was just unacceptable. And the Mormon faith demanded that children are obedient. So in 2009, when Jesse was 15, they were visiting their grandparents in Utah with the rest of the family, and they got into an argument with their mother overdoing the dishes and went to bed.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: When they, when they woke up, their parents had left with their three siblings and had left Jesse there.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Jesse had been left behind at this home in Utah with their aunt Jodi Hildebrant.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Uh, so Jodi Hildebrant. Wow. Lucky Jesse, was Jesse's aunt. Yikes. And the parents basically said, we left you there so that you could learn a thing or two from your therapist aunt who's gonna fix you, you know, and, and teach you the errors of your rebellious ways. [laughter] It's so...
Em Schulz: Which like, they, they had to know what type of person she was. Kind of like, why would you leave your child with her?
Christine Schiefer: You would think so.
Em Schulz: It's your sister.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically, much of the abuse that we see with Ruby Franke's children, umm, was an echo of what Jesse had previously experienced also at Jodi's hands. So, for example, Jodi forced Jesse to kneel on the floor for hours begging for God's forgiveness. Jesse had to sleep outside in the snow. Uh, they weren't allowed to use tampons because Jodi accused Jesse of using them to masturbate. Umm, Jesse often had to wear duct tape over their mouth because Jodi accused Jesse of being a liar and master manipulator. And this was some sort of symbolic punishment. Umm, at public gatherings, Jesse was told that they had to be quiet and could not speak to anyone because they were a liar. And wouldn't, that Jodi wouldn't tolerate them spreading their lies. Uh, if someone addressed them directly, Jesse was supposed to remain completely silent as if they'd never been spoken to.
Em Schulz: What in the fuck? Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And it's so bizarre. They said later, I experienced being told I shouldn't be around other people being told that I was dangerous to be around. And Jodi continued to keep Jesse so isolated that they stopped going to school. They just were completely kept, like sheltered in this home. And Jodi's colleague meanwhile noticed that Jesse would often be left alone in a room just by themselves for 12 hours a day while Jodi worked. Just sort of like, lock Jesse away in a room and, and leave them there instead of school instead of doing anything productive.
Em Schulz: It's almost like this where I'm like, I, like in an episode of Snapped, I'm like, I fucking get it. Like, do whatever you gotta do. I know, like it's, I know some people, some people deserve to snap. [chuckle] I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Some people are just pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed. And so when, uh, when this colleague asked Jodi, like, what is going on with this Jesse child that you have kept away in this room for 12 hours a day? Jodi would become agitated and said, don't talk to Jesse. And so, the colleague knew something was wrong. So one day his colleague wordlessly left a warm coat hanging up for Jesse in the office as like a, a little gift to say, you know, stay strong. And this was the signal that Jesse didn't know they needed. They took the coat and they fucking ran, like ran away from this whole situation. And they had been with Jodi for a year.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And had begun to suffer suicidal ideation thoughts of self-harm and reaching, like you said, a breaking point, a snapping point. And thank God made it out before anything, you know...
Em Schulz: And how old were they?
Christine Schiefer: Became even more escalated. Umm, so at the time they were 15, so this was like the year between 15, 16.
Em Schulz: So it's like, it's such a, uh, I, I mean, I'm just armchair expert in here, but I feel like when the abuse like that starts from 0-100 at 15, when you know what life is like without this, like you were so much quicker to be like, this is not what fucking happens here.
Christine Schiefer: That's so true. It's like you're like, wait a minute. Like this doesn't have to be, you know, yeah.
Em Schulz: Like those poor little kids. And also like those little kids are like, you know, so much more vulnerable and so much more...
Christine Schiefer: So much more dependent on a grown up.
Em Schulz: Dependent and like, they've never known another life. And so, but like to do it. Just, it's almost like really bold of Jodi to have started on a 15-year-old who could have like, you know, voiced an opinion that the little kids wouldn't have or something like that. Like it was...
Christine Schiefer: I fully agree. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Not saying...
Christine Schiefer: I absolutely...
Em Schulz: The 15-year-old.
Christine Schiefer: Not saying one's better or worse, but it's just like interesting.
Em Schulz: Or should have defended themselves or should have left earlier. But like, it's, it's, I would've thought you'd start with someone more vulnerable and like physically weaker or something just to like, test the waters before you just go to a 15-year-old who like knows a life outside of you, you know. It's so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's almost like Jodi just had no grasp of the logic there, or like the lack of logic. Just, just thought this is, I'm doing the best for this. Or, I don't even know if Jodi thought she was doing the best. I think she just...
Em Schulz: I also wonder.
Christine Schiefer: Is so fucked up in the head.
Em Schulz: This is, umm, I, I mean, we, it's fully speculation, but I wonder if, if the speculation about Jodi is true about her sexuality, I wonder if she could maybe sense something in Jessie that there was like a jealousy or something, because...
Christine Schiefer: So there's almost, I think you're onto something because if you listen to the full interview, Jessie does talk about like, how they were already struggling, not struggling necessarily, but a little bit because of just the confines of being in like a strict organized religion, but trying to find their identity, trying to figure out their sexuality. Was saying that even then when they were, you know, identifying by a different, by different pronouns, by different identity, they were even saying back then they were like completely out of their element with anything sexual. Like they were not, uh, promiscuous. They were not experimenting. Like they were like, I just was kind of cranky about doing the dishes sometimes. That's about as bad as it got. But now Jodi is suddenly accusing them of being this like, perverted sick person, you know, and, and saying like, you can't even use hygiene products for your menstruation products because you are gonna use them to like your evil sexual desires. And, and so it's clearly there has, in my humble armchair ignorant opinion, seems like Jodi's projecting a little bit. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like, because Jesse says, I didn't even know what, what she was talking about. Like, I've, I've never had any sort of weird sexual, like, perversion in me or anything. And it's suddenly they're being accused of being like this sick creature with all these sexual impulses and it was all made up. So there's something there, there's something there that Jodi's like, catching on that...
Em Schulz: Yeah. So maybe it was like a justification of like, oh no, I'm saving, I'm saving Jesse or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. And a lot of it was, was kind of angled as like, you'll thank me later. I'm, I'm saving you, you know.
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: And very sick, very twisted. Umm, so eventually, like I said, Jesse gets a sign from the colleague, uh, of this coat, takes it and runs. And at the police station, Jesse requested to be referred to a safe house, and they moved into a homeless shelter and left Jodi behind. Umm, but now, you know, years later here, Jodi is again, suddenly in the news and Jesse feels like they have to tell their story because they're finding out Jodi has gone on to do this to other children and even younger children and even more sinister, you know...
Em Schulz: And the survivor guilt.
Christine Schiefer: And so yeah, there's probably like that element of like, I gotta get in there and, and say my piece and make sure that Jodi's like, gets the full extent of what needs to happen.
Em Schulz: Imagine, you're Jesse and you see Jodi all of a sudden show up in the news and you're just like, "Ugh, what the fuck did she do now?"
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like, like, I finally got this fucking bitch outta my life and now suddenly you're wrapped up in it again. And so yeah, Jesse reached out to investigators 'cause they felt like they kind of had to, and it's a really brave and great thing that they did because these stories suddenly backed up, gave so much more credence to these these stories that a 10 and 12-year-old are telling. And Jesse's like, "No, the same thing happened to me." And so, you know, even though this hasn't been shared with the public yet, the fact that Jesse is saying, this is what happened to me, this is what happened to me. And the police are like, "Okay, well, you're saying a lot of things that has happened to these children, you wouldn't know that from the news." So there's clearly something here, you know, this is clearly, uh, true. What's going on? So based on statements from these survivors, umm, physical evidence, Ruby's own journal admissions, there was enough evidence to bring multiple charges against Ruby and Jodi. And apparently these two bozos also continuously made incriminating phone calls from jail while they awaited trial without bail.
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, how stupid can you be? You already got your journal taken away, where you detailed everything explicitly.
Em Schulz: They're so used to publicizing all contents. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I guess, that's true. That's a great point. They're like always on camera. That's such a good point, Em. I hadn't even thought of that. So yeah, Jodi gets in one on one phone call and says, "Oh, so now it's abuse to make a kid sleep on the floor." You can't even raise your kids anymore.
Em Schulz: [laughter] What the fuck?
Christine Schiefer: Bitch, what?
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Also like, bitch, it's being your kid. It's not even your kid. It stop saying you're raising your kid. That's not your kid. Go like, what is wrong with with you?
Em Schulz: I love when Christine starts going, bitch this and bitch, that I love...
Christine Schiefer: I don't even ever say it. It's just like, sometimes I'm like, I'm like, can you just speak up Jodi and say that again for my benefit 'cause I, I think I misunderstood you.
Em Schulz: I've been going through a phase where I'm bitching this and that a little more often and I'm loving it. And to hear it from another person feels really good.
Christine Schiefer: That's, I think Renee started doing it too. And I just like latched on. I just really like it. Like what?
Em Schulz: For a while I was like ain't saying bitch, because while I was on my own gender journey, I was like, until I figure out what's going on, maybe I shouldn't, right, use a word that's been used against women. And then I was like, once I felt like a, like perfectly they, them perfectly non-binary, I was like, I'm gonna reclaim this shit. And so now I've been, hell yes, bitching and bitching and bitching and it really is such a good emphasizer, uh, and right now...
Christine Schiefer: It's a good word.
Em Schulz: Hearing you say it. I was like, oh, I've made a, a good call bringing that back, so.
Christine Schiefer: It's, I, I was telling you and Eva, when I hurt myself, like if I stub my toe, I just go bitch. And it really...
Em Schulz: It really helps.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the perfect, uh, combination of consonants to really just like, yeah.
Em Schulz: I also think...
Christine Schiefer: Bring it home.
Em Schulz: I think as a queer, uh, bitch is also like non-binary. Like I think it's just a gender neutral term for like, like there have been a few times. I've done something good, bad or neutral, and every time I've gone, bitch, what's going on bitch? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like what?
Em Schulz: And I love it.
Christine Schiefer: It really does, it really does make me spin around and go, what? And you're like, you know what you did. And I'm like, yes, I do. There's something very just like...
Em Schulz: I think I said it as you were creating us off a highway. And I went, bitch, this is the last thing I'm gonna have to say. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is it. I'm done. Precisely. And honestly, it was beautiful and I wouldn't have wanted it to go any other way.
Em Schulz: Anyway, keep it up, Christine. I'm loving, I'm loving this.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, bitch. What? Say that again. So Jodi's like, oh, well now it's abuse to make your kid sleep on the floor. You can't even, first of all, again, not your kid. And like, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Ding, ding, ding.
Christine Schiefer: What's the matter with you? So then ding, ding, ding. And so in another, in a different phone call, Ruby was caught saying that it's difficult for adults to accept that children can be evil and that there are steps necessary to save them from this evil. I mean, lunacy, pure lunacy. So finally, Kevin, the husband, the dad did come forward and denounce Ruby, umm, thankfully. He claimed that they had been separated since 2022 due to problems in their marriage citing a pornography addiction, which is interesting 'cause that's kind of, that seemed to be Jodi's bread and butter of like accusations. Uh, so I don't know how much of that is true. I mean, he claimed it so I not gonna...
Em Schulz: He could have watched like a PG movie where Spider-Man kisses Mary Jane and like he's just gonna rotten hell forever. 'Cause it was porn.
Christine Schiefer: He is cursed to live out on the streets. Uh, and face his own evil. Yeah. That that sounds right. Umm, so he said that Ruby and Jodi, so this is, uh, kind of goes back to what you said, had actually used the same psychological abuse tactics on him. He said every week was just hell. I can't describe to you what torture and hell it was to live an entire month believing that I was like evil.
Christine Schiefer: And so Kevin was legally ruled out as a suspect in the current abuse case, but former viewers argued that he was at least complicit in the many years of obvious abuse that the children were suffering while the YouTube channel was active. Umm, but only, you know, we don't really know behind the scenes as much of it. As much as most of it was on camera, a lot of it wasn't, right? So we don't know the truth. Only the kids know the truth of their dad's involvement. Umm, but he did seem for what it's worth to reconcile with the eldest two, Shari and Chad. So, you know, it seems like they've at least somewhat patched up their relationship.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine. And so like, I, I'm not obviously like yes, he was complicit in that's disgusting. I do sympathize for a second though about like if he really, if if he really was another victim in this initially, and then they were trying to fix their marriage. And so then Ruby brings in someone just like her to justify all of her actions. And like, it's like he's just like, now it's just double. It's like he thought he was going to...
Christine Schiefer: You're almost being like edged out of your own life and family. Like you're being just like bullied out and being called evil. And I mean, it sounds toxic as fuck.
Em Schulz: Hopefully, his two older kids were like, we were just all fighting to survive or something. I don't know. I don't know what the situation was.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I don't either. Umm, but you're right, it is, it is somewhat telling to me that at least he's reconciled with two of the kids. Umm, I don't know what the situation is with the rest. Umm, but we, we do know that he did file for divorce and he began taking steps toward regaining custody of the four other children.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, Kevin also filed to prevent Jodi from selling, uh, her home to support herself because he is seeking financial restitution and support for the continued therapeutic treatment that his kids obviously need now after this fucking nonsense. And so in jail, awaiting trial, Ruby began to express regret. Aw. Umm, claiming that she had been influenced to abuse her children by Jodi. And she agreed to testify against Jodi at trial for a plea deal. So you can just imagine when Jodi heard about this.
Em Schulz: Oh, she probably, I mean, her girlfriend that she, no... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Her girlfriend" redacted.
Em Schulz: Redacted. I do, I mean, from what I'm hearing, and I am absolutely not, uh, the YouTube sleuth on this. Umm, but it does sound like there was already for sure abuse and I think when Ruby Franke met Jodi, it sounding like Jodi opened her eyes to a whole new world of abuse. So I think it, I think maybe Ruby Franke isn't totally lying, but like, feel like someone gave her permission to be even a worse version. Yes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It was like gasoline. Gasoline to the fire. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I, I've looked into Jodi's, you know, alleged sexuality. People on Reddit have made claims and said, you know, they remember this and knew her from there. And, you know, there's nothing, umm, like super obvious. But I will say like this. [laughter] This article from, uh, the Mirror, the headline is Child Abusers, Ruby Franke, and Jodi Hildebrant in Sexual Relationship, niece suggests.
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, there is definitely rumors, at least of romantic feelings between the two. Umm, and they, they called themselves, by the way, their Instagram was called Moms of Truth. Umm, and it was all about like, yeah, like strict parenting and yeah. Hildebrant's niece, umm, oh, this is Jessie. Sorry. So that's not niece. I don't know why they're saying that.
Em Schulz: It's nibbling.
Christine Schiefer: Nibbling or what's, what's the word for like a...
Em Schulz: It's, it's nibbling, but I don't know if anyone...
Christine Schiefer: It's nibbling.
Em Schulz: Uses it, but by definition, it's nibbling.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I'm sorry. I did not, I was, didn't realize it was the same person. Umm, so that's fucked up. But Hildebrant's nibbling, canceled, mere canceled. Probably, already canceled. Umm, Jesse apparently speculated, speculated that the relationship might have been something more and that Jodi may be queer. Umm, and speaking on something called Mormon Stories might be a podcast, I'm not sure. Uh, Jessie said, "I thought that since I was a kid that potentially Hildebrant was queer. She did say something to me when I was living with her. That was very strange because I've known I was queer since I was seven. And apparently, Jessie continued. She knew about that and it was very, very bad and very evil. But then she said something to me, she said something to the effect of, yes, being gay is evil, pleasures of the flesh, yada yada. But if I were to have sexual relationships with my friends, it would be different because there's a deep emotional connection there. And that's different."
Em Schulz: Gay. Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. I don't have to speculate. I just know, I just know.
Christine Schiefer: Jessie says, "We were sitting in someone's living room and she said this. And I was just like, what? That's called being gay." [laughter] And then said, what do you think gay relationships are? Like they are emotional and deep and connective. That's literally just being in a relationship, being a gay and this...
Em Schulz: It's amazing.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure Jodi her goddamn mind, but still.
Em Schulz: It's amazing what, umm, closeted people will say and like, they think that they're fucking pulling the wolves over everyone. And it's like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Like, yeah. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Like when a lot of, uh, like there's a lot of parents out there. I've see, I'm on gay TikTok obviously, and a lot of people are like, uh, my dad just said that like, yeah, he used to like, just make out with his buddies, but it wasn't a big deal. It's like dude, you're guy.
Christine Schiefer: Everyone does that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's like, we've all been there. It's like, dad, no, you're having, we're we're coming to a realization together right now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, even, even you when you were just, it's like figuring out your own sexuality.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: And you, you said something about like, uh, it's like, but everyone thinks about like hooking up with girls, right?
Christine Schiefer: I did. I still have to remind, remind myself. I still have to remind myself that that's not true. 'Cause in my mind I'm like, well, everyone feels that way. Turns out just me and all my friends feel that way because we're all a little bit queer. [laughter] And I thought, oh, that's just normal. Now, apparently it's not. Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Which like, that's fair. You were already surrounded by, you were surrounded by people where it was normalized, so you wouldn't have known any better.
Christine Schiefer: So, to everybody else, I was just, uh, you know, average, right? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's funny how like, I I how glass the closet is, how see-through it is when [laughter] people are like...
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't sometimes even register. It registers to other people more than yourself. It's very bizarre feeling, umm.
Em Schulz: But, okay, so that answers the question then of like that oh, maybe, maybe Jodi sensed it in, in Jesse. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So definitely to the sexuality thing. Umm, because, uh, Jesse has identified as queer since young, young childhood. So, you know, it's like Jodi latched onto that for sure. And to say like, oh, and you know, that is hearsay, whatever. But like to say, if she really did say, oh, well, uh, the, like, having these cravings for people like gay, these gay feelings is evil. But like, if I had that for my friend, it wouldn't be evil. It's like, girl bitch. What? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Bitch, you're gay bitch. What's that? What's that? What's that TikTok sound? Oh, uh, uh, denial is a river in Egypt. You are gay or something like that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, your husband is Gay. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It together. Yeah. It's just like, so I mean, come on, people get it together. Like, just because you're so fucked up and repressed, like, don't take it out on children, you know, like, Jesus Christ, it's hard enough out there and now you're just turning on child... It's so sickening to me. Like it's one thing to be like messing with people's relationships. Marriages obviously fucked up, but those are at least adults who can at the end of the day make their own choices. But this? I just can't understand.
Em Schulz: Which by the way, like I... And there is a, uh, I don't know what the name for them is assholes, I guess. But there is a group of queer people. I'm sure there's, it's in the same, like, it's in the male realm as well, but in lesbianism or queer dom, there are a group of people who were like, their whole thing is to try to like turn straight people or to like try to like manipulate them into a relationship. And I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: And I can like trick them into it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And if Jodi's one thing, she's a manipulative bitch. And so like, I feel like it would've been, you know, if she's having this deep, intimate relationship with Ruby Franke, it would not, it wouldn't be against anything to maybe fall for her or hook up with her. And maybe Ruby Franke also had these thoughts. I don't know. But it seems like...
Christine Schiefer: Who knew? Who knows?
Em Schulz: I feel like I have, I personally have zero doubt that they were hooking up. And I don't know what the context is there, but I, I think at least Jodi was with her.
Christine Schiefer: Just even, even the idea that she moved in and started calling them her children and started raising Ruby's children and...
Em Schulz: Well, like kicked her husband out.
Christine Schiefer: Kicked the husband out, like then cla... As their mar as their licensed marriage counselor. Like, come on, like you, if this were a man and woman situation, we'd all be like, okay, well they're clearly hooking up, right? Like it's, it's, it's beyond to say like, oh no, they're just business partners. Like, mm-hmm, sure. Whatever you say.
Em Schulz: I have no doubt. If if it was wrong...
Christine Schiefer: They're just roommates.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] If, if they were, if, if I'm wrong, I, I guess, I'll never know. But I also know with sweetened tea, I am not wrong.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You're like, if I'm wrong, which I'm not, anyway...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't even need to go there 'cause it would never happen. I'm right.
Em Schulz: It wouldn't be, there's no way wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Like you did say, if I'm wrong, and then you never like finish the sentence. You were like, but I'm not, so, anyway.
Em Schulz: I know I'm not.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Umm, so yeah. I, I'm curious if anything more comes out of that. I mean, again, like in the Mormon faith that is not permitted, right? So I'm sure she's building all these like, structures around herself to convince herself it's different. You know, she's different. Like it's allowed if she does it a certain way, you know, and, and then is just fucking projecting the shit onto queer children, any children, it doesn't matter. Umm, so Ruby turns on Jodi [laughter], which you know, didn't end well. Umm, and which Ruby ended up pleading guilty to four counts of aggravated child abuse with a maximum sentence of 30 years. And the other two charges were dismissed. This deal, this plea deal also dictated that prosecutors would not fight to extend her sentence if she did become a candidate for parole. However, it was a requirement that the charges all carried prison sentences and the sentences would be served consecutively, not concurrently. So, not... So in a row like consecutively not at the same time. And when Jodi, uh, learned that Ruby would testify against her, she decided to plead guilty as well to the same four charges of aggravated child abuse, 'cause she didn't really have much room.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And if she pleaded not guilty, uh, she'd probably be buried because Ruby was now testifying against her. So investigators thankfully, at the very least, could breathe a sigh of relief that like the survivors wouldn't have to be dragged through along re-traumatizing trial, you know, and these children didn't have to go back on record and, and be cross-examined by attorneys and all this. And so there was a little bit of relief in that. And although Ruby did express some regret for her behavior at her sentencing hearing, Jodi didn't seem to take any accountability for her actions. Wow. What a surprise. Uh, all she did was wish for healing for the children.
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck off. Truly Fuck off.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, go fuck yourself. Truly [laughter], go fuck yourself with a tampon or whatever you accuse everyone else doing [laughter] umm, like, come on, seriously, whatever, uh.
Em Schulz: Evil.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter], it's just evil. Umm, and she never acknowledged that like, the reason they needed to heal was because she fucking hurt them.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's like, oh, I hope... I wish them the best 'cause I fucking put them through the worst, you know? But won't acknowledge that part. Umm, like there were, there were stories of, of that are told where he would have these wounds, umm, these like deep lacerations from being held captive. And Jodi would try and dress his wounds with like, cayenne and honey.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And like, try to like, try to like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, what the fuck? Like, she's full outright abusing these children. And she's like, I wish them only the best.
Em Schulz: I mean, she's fully, she is mentally ill, right? Like, this isn't just like a religious thing. Like she's mentally ill.
Christine Schiefer: I, she's even, I mean, the fact that even the church was like, please stop. Like, you're not doing a good job. You're hurting people. You know, it's like, well then this is clearly a Jodi problem. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so anyway, she never of course acknowledged anything she had done. And, uh, let's see, fewer than two months ago, so February 20th of this year, 2024, Ruby and Jodi were both sentenced to serve four prison sentences consecutively each one with a potential 1-15 year sentence. Uh, so that's quite a...
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: Complex journey. I don't know where it ends up, however, the, the one parameter is that she will not serve more than 30 years total.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the ultimate length of the sentence has not been determined yet. It will be determined by the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole. And so with that said, they could be, if all of these sentences are just one year, right? They could be released on parole as early as August of 2027, which many people, including Jesse feel is, would be an injustice.
Em Schulz: Specially, 'cause the kids would still be so young that they would probably go back to her, or like, feel like they had some, I mean, not probably, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't give anybody much time to heal without them in their lives. Right? Like it doesn't...
Em Schulz: Especially when you're so young. Yeah. 'cause atleast...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, especially when you're so young.
Em Schulz: I feel like if you're older, at least you can experience life for three years without them and then be like, when they're back in the picture, they can go fuck themselves. But when you're nine, I mean, I cannot at all compare my own childhood to this, but like, when you've got an abrasive figure in your life, at the very least, you still as an adult feel some weird calling to try to mend that. And so, like, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's your parent. Exactly.
Em Schulz: I feel like as you're, as a kid, like, I mean, I, I hope that they have strong guardians around them through that to be like, let's not, let's not, but...
Christine Schiefer: Not engage. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But it, they might still be so young that they just want their mommy, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Well, and it's just like, how could you even blame them, you know? Like, it's like, so must be just so confusing and, and, and painful. And, and I will also say like, if you're working on recovering and like trying to heal yourself, and then your abuser is suddenly out and about again, even if you're not engaging with them, there's still that now like, that sudden fear of like, well, they're gonna do this to someone else.
Em Schulz: You could run into them.
Christine Schiefer: Or, yeah. Am I safe? Are are other kids safe? And so it's like, you don't even get that freedom to like really process and heal without worrying that they're like running around somewhere. So, you know, I understand that, like fear that, you know, but we'll see, there's no way to know yet. Umm, but Jesse, for what it's worth, believes that Jodi, if Jodi got out that early, she just turned right around and hurt somebody else. And I mean, with these patterns, I don't doubt that. There were also, uh, terrifying discoveries, uh, in Ruby's journal. Umm, some really upsetting ones that investigators found that revealed that she and Jodi were apparently looking for land in Arizona miles away from any other homes or inhabitants where their children would not have been able to escape or find help.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And if anybody was doubting whether these people were monsters or not, uh, I'll just read you this line that was written in Ruby's journal, which said, "We will drop them like hot potatoes in the desert just trap them out there."
Em Schulz: And also like, uh, I don't, I'm just trying to think like in that world's future where they actually had their own lands and the kids were there, there's no one to even know that they've aged out of school. There's no one to know that they've aged out where they should be able to go do their own thing. 'Cause once the kids are 18, if nobody even knows that they're there, then Ruby and Jodi can just keep treating them... Like there's no, oh, now I get to like, escape and go to college. It's just...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, this has been your whole life and you're still trapped there. And nobody can even find you, I mean.
Em Schulz: They could have kept them there through their 30s, 40s, like could have just...
Christine Schiefer: Who knows.
Em Schulz: Kept them held captive fully. And like, and then John video content...
Christine Schiefer: They could have killed them.
Em Schulz: Been like, oh, they're just, you know, they're taking a gap year. And then just kept coming up with excuses for why they just stayed. You know?
Christine Schiefer: It seemed like they just thought they had it all figured out. And it was very obvious from these journal entries that they just wanted to find like an abandoned area or like a, a very remote area where the kids would not be able to find any other, uh, grownups to help. And if they had made that move and R hadn't escaped out a window, by the way, he would never have found help. He would never have been able to find, you know, someone on the ring doorbell to save you. And as far as investigators are concerned, if they had made that move, the children would've been killed eventually. Like, they wouldn't have made it to their 30's. Like they would've probably, the abuse would've just escalated until they were killed.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's what investigators believe. And so, you know, it was R's incredible bravery that saved him, saved his younger sister, uh, saved probably both their lives at the end of the day. Umm, he told the investigators that when he managed to escape his handcuffs and leave the house, his only motivation, I'm gonna cry, his only motivation was hunger and thirst.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He was not even like, looking like logically for some, he was just driven by like, instinct for food and water. Like how deeply sad.
Em Schulz: Which is like your body's fully shutting down if you are running on primal need for survival.
Christine Schiefer: If, if you're primarily only thinking food, that's probably when he said, can I have two favors? And he said, one favors the police. And then he is like, just do that part first. But wow. Uh, but the first responders who met him, and to the families who are caring for the children, he is everybody's hero. You know. They're like, you did what you needed to do. And that moment, like think about, Ooh, I have chills again. Like, think about that moment when you're first house, nobody answers second house, nobody answers. You're like, Jodi's gonna find out any minute I'm not in my room. And she's gonna chase me down the street. Like that, that fear must be so visceral and palpable if you're not getting answers. Ooh, it just is so frightening.
Em Schulz: And imagine poor trauma bonding of those two younger siblings who were just, they were all they had in that house.
Christine Schiefer: Just completely abandoned and left. Yeah. Yeah. Left as each, yeah, each other. And then the other, the four other siblings are out of the house. They've only got each other.
Em Schulz: What would've, what would've even happened if one of them died of malnutrition? Which it sounds like within 24 hours he was gonna drop dead. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It Basically sounds like they were on the way. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, what would've happened on YouTube? What would've been the video? And like, how do you explain?
Christine Schiefer: So they weren't doing videos anymore.
Em Schulz: 0h, right.
Christine Schiefer: They weren't doing videos about the kids at all. Ruby was just with Jodi, which is why everybody was saying like, where are the kids? Are they okay? And they're like, we're not doing that anymore. We're doing connections, ConneXions, we are doing ConneXions.
Em Schulz: Which like, she must have, I feel like part of her somewhere deep down had to know that like, I mean, like, I, I am imagining the abuse had to escalate and now the kids were like visibly abused, or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She couldn't put them on camera anymore. Which, but also that goes to show like she knew what she was doing was fucked up.
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she didn't want people to see. And she, I guess the way she framed it to herself was, oh, well they wouldn't understand because like, my kids have evil in them and I'm trying to save them, but nobody in the real world would understand, you know? And so, I can't show them 'cause they'll, oh, 'cause they'll stop me. And there you go. Yes, they did, thankfully. Umm, so Jesse in an interview said, "I hope the shocking nature of the story doesn't blind people to the commonality of the story. It's easy to distance ourselves from something that seems so shocking and feel like it has nothing to do with you or your community." And interestingly enough, which is something I find deeply fascinating, we're finally starting to hear from the first generation of adults who grew up as a member of a family vlog or a family channel.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like Shari herself, who posted, like, I've been trying to get police involved for years. And many of these now adults who grew up this way express discomfort at having their entire lives shared online. Like the first time they used a tampon, the first time they shaved their legs. I mean, what the fuck? Like, it's hard enough to be a kid, let alone like having creepy old men watching it and doing God knows what, you know, and it's just like, you have no semblance of what's, I, I imagine there's not, there's just such a blurred line between reality and what's fake and what's acting and what's not acting. And the privacy alone. Just the lack of privacy must be so traumatizing. [laughter] Be like, I don't have anything that's just mine. You know, you just, you're, you're just on display.
Em Schulz: I feel like there's gonna be a whole new genre of therapy coming up of like, just for survivors of vlogs, of family vlogs. 'Cause you're right, this is the first generation that's really gonna start speaking out.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like you hear about child actors facing so many challenges. And now it's like even adults who did grow up in the public eye, who say they had a good experience, a positive experience. It's different than this because these kids, every monotonous moment was posted. You know, it's not just like, oh, you're in a movie and so you're famous for that, or you were on a TV show. It's like, no, you were seen having your first period, you know, like every single thing about you has been plastered to the internet. Umm, and people can find out any, there's no privacy. People can find out anything about you. Umm, some parents say they get their children's consent before featuring them online, but then experts are like, they are children.
Em Schulz: What does that mean?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. That kind of makes the whole point moot. Umm, and so I struggle with this just with Leona. Like, I've gotten people saying, you know, why would you put her online? And it's like, I really, like, I know there are people who don't put their children's faces online, and sometimes I'm like, maybe I should be more, I don't know. I feel like at a certain point it's a personal choice until it becomes, I think it's just a gray space, a gray area. Like how do you determine which kid is too online? Which kid's being exploited, which one's just being featured? Which, you know, I, I don't really know.
Em Schulz: Which by the way you kid is not too online. I guess people know her face if they look at the one of like five pictures you've posted. But, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I try not to, you know, overly, I mean, I don't even overly post it in general, so I'm like, I just, it's not as much I hope of an issue, but I then I think sometimes like, oh, she says so many funny things and I would love to put them on TikTok, but it's like, how far is too far with that, you know? And I mean, then this is just me spiraling, 'cause I don't do this anyway, so I don't know why I'm concerned. But it had me wonder, you know.
Em Schulz: No. I think about it. If I had, if I had a kid and they said something funny, I would wanna put it on TikTok. And then if, what if I had like a fucking standup comedian kid? Like what if I just wanted to keep posting random things? They said, yeah, I mean.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. What if they're so funny? And, and like, I follow some kids online that I think are just like so hilarious and kind and funny and smart. And I, I love their videos, but they're kids. And I'm like, it's, it's also such a bizarre line.
Em Schulz: Well, it's also like, it's one of, it's one of those things too where like the bad people ruin it for everybody, because you gently mentioned it in the first episode of this and the first part of this. But there is a rampant problem currently with...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes.
Em Schulz: Uh, with family vlogs posting content about their children. Umm, and there's like whole TikTok accounts that are just, their whole purpose is to go find a family of vlog and look at the followership and see that like 80%, 90% of them are old men looking at little...
Christine Schiefer: They're predators. And, and, and I follow those same accounts and they're so sobering. Like, you see, they pull these statistics and they're so jarring and sobering. You think like, and then you can, they, these accounts also find sort of fake accounts where you can see them almost like leaving messages on certain, to each other. Like there's this whole, I mean like a full on sinister underground pedophilia situation that is, that runs rampant with this.
Em Schulz: It's shocking.
Christine Schiefer: It's shocking. It's upsetting.
Em Schulz: And because I don't have a kid, and because I'm not a predator, very often, I'm not thinking about that space of life. But then the second that, like, I think because I watch a lot of SVU, my TikTok was like, Okay, well you'll love this. And so now I've just been...
Christine Schiefer: You'll get it. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But like, so it's, it's not just one, two, 10 accounts. It's, it feels like almost every account that showcases little children, there is a problem with the people following that account. There is a chunk.
Christine Schiefer: There's percentage.
Em Schulz: On every account, on every account.
Christine Schiefer: There's a not small, a not small demographic of predators watching. And you can see this, you can get the statistics. This is not some sort of like, conspiracy, you know, this is really...
Em Schulz: It's so scary.
Christine Schiefer: Why else would a 60-year-old man or thousands of 60 year old men be just over and over watching a video of a girl having her period for the first time? Like, why, why? I'm sorry, there's no...
Em Schulz: Or like in a bikini or like baby's, baby's first swim, swimming and like...
Christine Schiefer: Buying her bra for the bra shopping video was one of their most popular videos. And it had just millions upon millions of views. I'm like, who is watching these, this 12-year-old get a bra? Like, what the fuck is wrong with, like this family thinking like, oh, well it's fine. And it's like, obviously at a certain point, you know, how much of your channel's being funded by people who are predators. I mean, I, I don't know how else to say it. And I think it's really important to go back to what Jesse said, like as much as it's so shocking and it feels like distant from you, like it's very common and very rampant. It's not, it's not like some shadowy, like tiny portion of the population. Like this is a huge problem. Like you were saying. You could see it.
Em Schulz: Well, well, what you said, what you said too about, umm, uh, the, the older daughter, or no, just in general. You were saying that like, well now this is the first generation of kids from vlogs coming out and talking, I imagine give it 10 more years and they're old enough to start passing laws that they're gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they are. Yes. A lot of them are advocating for laws. That's, that's a great point that you brought. I'm so glad you brought that up because there are now, actually, I think I actually have a bullet on it, but, uh, there are actually, we're gonna, we're about to get there. So you are...
Em Schulz: Okay. Great.
Christine Schiefer: You are 100% on the mark with that. And I don't wanna just try and quote it from my memory 'cause it's not gonna go well.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, I'll read it to you in a minute. But, umm, anyway, so some parents like claim they get consent, but it's, then it's the sticky thing of, well, you can't get consent, they're children and, and you know, they need to be protected, but other people feel like it's no different than a child actor who like an a-list actor who's even more famous. And it's like, sure. That's also a problem. I don't know. It's, it's sticky, it's messy. But laws are finally, like you alluded to, catching up. They're slowly catching up. Umm, one law in France, uh, created regulations on children being used in monetized content, uh, based on pre-existing child labor laws. So that was enacted. And then in the US lawmakers are trying to establish laws requiring parents to deposit funds into trust for their children.
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: Among other protections, because the money alone has become a real point of contention with critics on, you know, you're saying like, oh, they're just in the videos, but it's like you're making a whole career off of them. And then, are there any protections legally? Are there financial protections in place? Where does the money go?
Em Schulz: Also like a digital version of a Coogan account. And like, so is there...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like, if you're one of the 8 Passengers, like each of those kids should be set for life for like having to invest, putting all of their personal shit out there on the internet.
Christine Schiefer: For child labor for many, many years.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, nope. Instead they were forced to sleep on the ground outside. Uh, so thankfully, I know that's an extreme case, of course. And there's gonna be some, every step of the way on that spectrum. Umm, but, you know, among other protections, the lawmakers in the US are trying to at least create some parameters of what needs to be saved for children, what needs to be, umm, the kind of funds that need to be put in a trust, that kind of thing. But of course, this is all still extremely controversial 'cause like, it's such a nebulous thing, just online fame, you know, it's just such a new and nebulous thing. Umm, according to the most recent reports from the caretakers of the youngest Franke children, [laughter] I just, I just wanna cry, every time I think about this 10 and 12-year-old, umm, they were placed in foster care, but together, so they, they're remaining together, so that's good.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently, umm, according to sources are thriving. They're healthy, they're happy.
Em Schulz: Oh good.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, they're, they feel safe and loved. So I just hope with all my heart that that's true. Umm, it sounds like it is. Their caretakers have said they're doing so much better. Umm, Child and Family Services was not able to comment on the placement of the older two children because of privacy concerns. Umm, I understand that fully. And essentially, it's just everyone's hope is that the children can just get out and feel okay again.
Em Schulz: Normal.
Christine Schiefer: And be able to recover, yeah. Normal as much as they can and live like full happy lives despite this like, long standing trauma. So this is a story of the 8 Passengers, the 8 Passengers channel, Ruby Franke, and her fucking evil nonsense, Jodi Hildebrant. It's just such a mess. But anyway, that's the story. And uh, that's all she wrote. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What time?
Christine Schiefer: I, it's just one of those weird things that I've been following for so many years, and I was one of those people when the, I signed the petitions, I didn't really do much else 'cause what else am I gonna do? But I, I watched the videos, I signed the petitions, and then when it came out, she was being arrested. I was like, finally. But I didn't realize quite how bad it was. Like how...
Em Schulz: I don't think anyone would.
Christine Schiefer: Shocking. No, no. It, it was like, it just escalated. And the fact, I mean, people knew the fact that she stopped filming her kids. It's like they were the big money makers, you know, like, I don't know. I don't know what she was thinking, but she went off the damn deep end.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible. Well, but I follow Shari, uh, S-H-A-R-I, Shari Franke. Umm, and she has a, she is on Instagram where she posts occasionally about this and about, uh, she, she does podcasts and interviews and talks about her experiences. And, umm, it's really, uh, very enlightening to hear her talk about it.
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's very mature for being so young, you know, having to grow up so fast.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, good job telling the story. It sounds like we both had some...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: For once. What a, what a bad thing. But we both had fucked up stories. Usually, minor.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Welcome. Uh, welcome to the dark side.
Em Schulz: I know, I, uh, what was I gonna say? Well, I forgot. You know, I think we really, uh, upgraded from earlier when we didn't the, we had our bumpy start and then we did the zoomies scream and everything turned out pretty good for us.
Christine Schiefer: That helped. I, I was, I kind of was rolling my eyes about that, but honestly, I think you were onto something.
Em Schulz: Sometimes you just gotta get silly. Get silly.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. And you're right. Is my sixth time getting silly today, but it really did, uh, did wonders for me, so thank you.
Em Schulz: Are are you getting silly at all later today, or are you gonna visit Wobbly Mountain with your wob monkey?
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so tonight is Wobbly Mountain night. I'm watching Leona, Blaise, umm, is helping his friend who's setting up a new Jiu Jitsu gym. And I'm like, good luck with that. Then tomorrow night, I'm going to a game night at my friend's house, and Blaise is staying home to do Wobbly Mountain. Then Sunday, I'm going to, I haven't even told you yet. Well, I did tell you briefly, but I'm going to a Psychic Convention here in Cincinnati.
Em Schulz: Yes. You did tell me.
Christine Schiefer: I'm very excited [laughter] about it. I keep being like, what? There's like all these talks about past lives and auras.
Em Schulz: Well, hang on, we'll talk about it, we'll talk about it, we'll talk about it on, on pitch...
Christine Schiefer: On the After Hours. Great idea.
Em Schulz: After Hours. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Great idea. Great idea.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you wanna hear about Christine's future endeavors, uh, at the, at Psychic Con, what's it called?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, uh, I don't know, [laughter]
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. I have an idea. Can we change the name of After Hours? And I, we can never get it right. And I, what if we called it After Dark? Because it's like after the dark shit of our podcast, After Dark. And that's why you drink after dark.
Em Schulz: Sure, you know what? And then in six months we'll change it again. That sounds great. I can't wait.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I know, but at least I can remember After Dark, After Hours and After Chat. Never quite stuck. We'll see. Maybe it won't stick at all, but I kind of like.
Em Schulz: Now that, now that we're moving it, you're only gonna call it After Hours, but yes.
Christine Schiefer: I know. But maybe eventually we'll s, we'll finally land, maybe.
Em Schulz: Eventually, we'll call it after the episode. That'll just be the name of it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Just, just, we're just not gonna call it anything.
Em Schulz: Anyway. If you want to hear any more, uh, of our babbling, you can head over to Patreon. We can hear the rest of this conversation. You can also go find us, uh, online right now. Uh, we are not touring. I think we only have one more. We have one more city. We have LA and that's it. And, uh, after that we're, we're taking a break. We also have two books. One you can order when you can pre-order, A Haunted Road Atlas and a Haunted Road Atlas Next Stop. And, uh, and also you could, if you're listening to us, you could also travel over to our YouTube. Umm, don't watch Ruby Franke show. But you could watch ours.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Don't.
Em Schulz: And that's it. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's it. That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We Drink.