[intro music]
Em Schulz: Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Aah... Is here.
Em Schulz: And I am also here, but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And we're so happy to see you.
Em Schulz: I, I, I... Yeah. Thank you. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I'm delighted... I'm delighted to be in your presence, quite frankly.
Em Schulz: I wonder how... Thank you. That's very sweet of you. And not at all feels forced like, I have a gun against your head...
Christine Schiefer: No, not even...
Em Schulz: But, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Not even a little bit.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I wonder how many episodes start with me going, "Christine." Just...
Christine Schiefer: I think all of them, really. Uh, yeah. That's the intro of all...
Em Schulz: I don't know how to... That's how I make an entrance too, when I see you face to face, I don't know how to see you and not go into it.
Christine Schiefer: That's... I, I heard you make... I heard that's what you do anytime you enter a room, whether I'm there or not. It's just kind of your...
Em Schulz: Yeah, Allison's always confused by it. But...
Christine Schiefer: It's just your opening line. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I think it's a good one. It's a powerful one. You know? It really sets the tone.
Em Schulz: Well, well, I, I gotta, I said your name 'cause I, I meant it. I wanted to thank you because we never...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: Opened Christmas presents with each other.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, I know.
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: We usually do the big, like, we're, we're 10 and we make a huge deal out of it. Umm...
Em Schulz: Which, by the way, let's, I don't think you're shaming it, but let's continue that.
Christine Schiefer: We're not knocking it. We're not knocking it. No...
Em Schulz: Let's continue with that. I don't want that to fade.
Christine Schiefer: It was just one of those years where it was too hard to navigate with starting the tour. So we had to... Pfft! Male presence, lame.
Em Schulz: Yikes. Uh, well, one of the things that sweet Christine sent me, I mean, you sent me many lovely things. You sent me a calendar that is very on par for us. You sent me a Bagel Bites gummies. You really, you nailed it. Well done. But my favorite thing is Christine, umm, sent me some federal drugs through the federal mail. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. No, no, no, no, no. See...
Em Schulz: Here's...
Christine Schiefer: You haven't even looked... You haven't even opened it yet. Have...
Em Schulz: I have opened it? I have opened it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay.
Em Schulz: But you sent me some drugs. Your, your name is on this prescription, Christine, how dare you?
Christine Schiefer: That part was an accident.
Em Schulz: And you mailed...
Christine Schiefer: It was supposed to say you... Your name.
Em Schulz: What's it supposed to say? My name?
Christine Schiefer: Em Schulz. Yes.
Em Schulz: One side, it says Christine Schiefer, and it is your literal prescription right here on this bottle. [laughter] And then you mailed it to me. Can you imagine if in a stop they would've been so confused if they checked this bag? And on the inside, my friends, I don't know how you got a hold of some Xanax for me, but you got me one whole bar of Xanax that very conveniently fits on my Croc.
Christine Schiefer: Yay!
Em Schulz: You real... By the way, what did you look up, Xanax like drugs for my Crocs. What did you look up to purchase this?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I looked up, I looked up drugs for Crocs, and, uh, no, I don't, I don't, I don't have any...
Em Schulz: Like how quick, how quickly could you find a bar of Xanax, Croc gidget or Jibbit, or whatever it's called.
Christine Schiefer: Instant, instantaneously...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't recall the journey I went on to find it. I just recall the success story it quickly became when I realized there is only... And I remember like casually asking you, because I don't take Xanax or I, I did like at one time in my life, briefly in grad school. But, uh, I, you know, as you know, I'm a Klonopin girly.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but I remember kind of casually asking you if you took any sort of ever anti-anxiety meds. And you said something like, "Oh, I, I was prescribed Xanax." And I was like, check, check, check. Because they had other options, right? They had a Klonopin one.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They had other ones. And I was like, well, I need to get the one that most suits you. Umm, but I didn't know that it came with like a little cute, like, label on a prescription bottle. Or I would've specified, like, don't put my fucking name on it. [laughter] Like put Em's name on it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I think it, it doesn't have your address on it, too. No, it doesn't have your address. But...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. If it did, that would be wild. They would be, this might be actually a drug front that I'm somehow, [laughter] uh, paying for. And I didn't realize it. Umm...
Em Schulz: No. It just says your name but it does also say...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it, it appeared much more realistic than I thought. It, it appeared much more realistic than I thought.
Em Schulz: It looks real, like, it looks like...
Christine Schiefer: Like a pill bottle.
Em Schulz: All the information is there and it even has an expiration date, which by the way is a 2000, year 2000. So it's totally...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good. [laughter] It's really powdery Xanax that doesn't work anymore.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Umm, and then I do, like on the back, it does say, fake prescription. So somewhere if you look hard enough, it lets you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, I love that. Because they sent it in just a little envelope. And I remember when I first got it, 'cause it was like during the midst of all the Christmas shopping, and I, I got this little thing and it was from... I bought it from Etsy, so it had just some random person's return address. And I was like, what is this? And I open it and there's a pill bottle inside. And I'm like, what the hell did I order in my, like, you know, Delta-9 drug haze one night or my wine, [laughter] wine, wine ordering. I don't know what I did, but I was like, holy shit.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: And then I opened it and was like, this is rubber. Okay. It's for a Croc.
Em Schulz: Well, last thing I'll say is the fake prescription directions on it would kill a grown man. 'Cause it says, "Take one tablet up to three times a day," and it's like eight times the amount that I take for one dosage. Like it's, so... It's saying like...
Christine Schiefer: How much is the dosage on that? I don't think I got to select that part.
Em Schulz: I take 0.25 and it says a full 2.0. So it's literally eight times the amount.
Christine Schiefer: What's three times a day? Oh, that's not bad. I mean, it's not as... I mean, I take less than that.
Em Schulz: Everybody says, take, take it three times a day. So that's technically 24 times the amount of Xanax that I usually take [laughter] So it's...
Christine Schiefer: I know, yeah.
Em Schulz: I would, I would drop that.
Christine Schiefer: It would kill maybe not a grown man, but it would kill you. [laughter] So, so maybe don't follow that...
Em Schulz: It would kill me.
Christine Schiefer: That label. Umm, anyway, umm, I'm so glad that you got it. I, I sent, I sent a little boxy box, umm, yes. And I did select no perfumes or drugs or whatever, the gasoline or whatever they ask at the post office...
Em Schulz: Thank you. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, with a little tee-hee.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I just wanted to publicly...
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: Umm, make sure you got the...
Christine Schiefer: Aww, well Em...
Em Schulz: Credit for your lovely Christmas gift, 'cause it, it's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so glad that you figured out it was a Jibbit. At first I thought you really thought I was sending you my, my drugs. And I was like, listen, I'd do that for you if you really wanted me to. But that it wasn't...
Em Schulz: I appreciate that.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't just do it without ask, without being asked. Umm, that would be a little presumptuous. But, uh...
Em Schulz: [chuckle] I wouldn't have...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway...
Em Schulz: I wouldn't have questioned it at all. I would've been like, that's a homie right there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I know you will... I know... You would've been like, great. Just what I was thinking. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, how are you, Em? I miss you.
Em Schulz: Anyway... I'm good. I miss you. I saw you because we had our very first shows...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, they all went great. No passing out here. Umm, uh, Christine even complimented my behavior backstage, which made me feel very good. I'm gonna talk to my therapist about it tonight...
Christine Schiefer: I gave you a gold star for your behavior. It makes it sound like [laughter] I'm some fucking elementary school teacher.
Em Schulz: No, I appreciated the feedback. Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: No, it was... Okay. To be clear, I wasn't, a com... I wasn't like, you know, critiquing Em backstage. I was just saying, wow, Em, I don't, I hope this is helpful. Not... I don't, I mean this in a, the most positive way. But you are like kicking butt back... Like you're being so, you know, in the past I feel like there was such deep-seated [laughter] fear and terror about passing out or about having a heart issue, or have... Oh, getting on stage at all. And I feel like you've really, umm, evolved. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: You've just, you seem like a wholly different person now after your surgery.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's very sweet. Well, everyone, thank Jordan, umm, my therapist...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I, I do daily in my, in my daily prayers, I only say one prayer and it's just to Jordan.
Em Schulz: Me, too, actually.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, but she, uh, we're trying a new tactic for dealing with my stage fright, which is, I hadn't heard about it before, but it's like, I, it's called I... It's either INS or IFS, I forget, I forget what it means. But I tried the EMDR stuff. E... EDMR. One of them is...
Christine Schiefer: EMDR.
Em Schulz: Music and one of them is therapy.
Christine Schiefer: EDM. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I tried, I tried EDM. I played a lot of, uh, dubstep backstage and...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: It didn't seem...
Em Schulz: Which by the way...
Christine Schiefer: To help Em's heart condition at all, which was so weird.
Em Schulz: The irony because dubstep was like, I was a dubstep kid in college.
Christine Schiefer: I know you. I cannot... It does not surprise me...
Em Schulz: And now my heart can't take it.
Christine Schiefer: At all.
Em Schulz: Well, so I was trying to, I did...
Christine Schiefer: You would love a glow stick. You're such a sucker for a fucking glow stick.
Em Schulz: Homie, I literally would go to the Dayglow festival where they would just shoot...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: Neon paint out. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like...
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: The thing that I know the most about you, even though you've never told me. You know?
Em Schulz: I love it. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I'm trying this new therapy with, uh, with Jordan.
Christine Schiefer: So you tried EMDR, it didn't work?
Em Schulz: Didn't work at all.
Christine Schiefer: I've heard wonderful things.
Em Schulz: Which was so disappointing 'cause everyone I know like that has tried it, swears by it.
Christine Schiefer: It's the thing... It's the thing I'm gonna try next. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, if it doesn't work for you, just know that you're not alone 'cause it was not...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: It was not my vibe. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And now I'm trying this new thing. And I did feel, I don't wanna say it like too out loud 'cause I don't wanna like totally like, jinx myself, but it, I, if, if... I could feel a difference when I was backstage. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so glad, Em.
Em Schulz: I'm hope... I, thank you. So, umm, and yeah, I didn't, I... The passing out thing didn't happen. I'm very excited. Anyway, and on top of that, our three audiences were all very lovely. We did a great job. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. It was, it was one of those stretches where like, I just felt so wholesome after every show. It felt like every show was fun and happy. Not that we ever feel like shitty after a show, but sometimes you feel kind of like, oh, maybe I dropped the ball. Or maybe they, the vibe wasn't right. But I feel like they all just were were fun and great.
Em Schulz: There's one city. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying to think. I'm like, which one? Uh, all those cities are like...
Em Schulz: No, you know the one.
Christine Schiefer: Couldn't be us.
Em Schulz: You know the one.
Christine Schiefer: You, you know that, you know, I'm so good at compartmentalizing. I remember absolutely nothing from this last leg. Right.
Em Schulz: I'm not gonna say it here, but we did say we may not return.
Christine Schiefer: What? Well, guys, I don't remember. So, umm, clearly, I had a great time at all the three. So, uh...
Em Schulz: Uh, at these, at these three, yes. I'm saying in the past, there's been a city that we...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, no, I'm sorry. I meant this segment of three.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, Em, you are really scaring Baltimore, DC, and Philly right now.
Em Schulz: And Philly. No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: We liked all those.
Christine Schiefer: What I'm saying is these three against all odds, all of them were great.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Usually like in a leg, one of them might be off or, or things, we've had experiences. Umm...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: That's what I'm talking about. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But none of that has happened yet, knock on wood. So, uh, I feel like we got, we kicked off to a great start, is what I'm saying. But...
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm excited for the other ones.
Christine Schiefer: There is a city we shall never return to. And I wonder if anybody could guess it. Ha ha ha ha. Probably not. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I think anyone who was at that show... I don't know. I was, I...
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't think so. 'Cause I, my one of my friends was at that show and she was like, wait, what happened? Uh, so she had no...
Em Schulz: Yeah, wild, wild. Yeah. Not for us.
Christine Schiefer: Hee-hee, we have secrets that we'll probably just say next week forgetting that it was a secret. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, sorry everyone. I just needed to throw an inside joke out that nobody gets to be a part of. I don't know why I did that. That was so mean. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What's that about?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'm really feeling interesting today. Uh, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. [laughter] I mean okay. Yeah. Go on. Go on.
Em Schulz: It must be all the Xanax you sent through the mail that's actually meant for my shoe...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: And I just ingested plastic.
Christine Schiefer: It's like you opened it and since it's 23 years old, all the powder just kind of went up in the air and...
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Poof.
Christine Schiefer: Infiltrated.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Well, so here's the thing. I was supposed to have a really big reason today that I was gonna like knock your socks off, umm, with.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I was supposed to, on Saturday. Which again... Not again, I have never said this, but to clarify.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to tell you this on Friday, when we were supposed to record...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then you and I ended up having like a really long meeting, and didn't get to record well...
Em Schulz: We bailed, we bailed on recording.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't sound like us at all. I know. Shocker.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, [laughter] but today, so I was gonna announce this then, and it was supposed to happen Saturday.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then when we didn't record, I was like, shit, okay, I'll have to tell you retroactively.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then it never happened. I was supposed to go to Bobby Mackey's on Saturday.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And I'll tell you what...
Em Schulz: You bitch. What happened to...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: So I was supposed tell you this on Friday and I was gonna be like, Em...
Em Schulz: Don't be mad.
Christine Schiefer: I have a confession. I was invited to a double date on a double date with a new friend.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And she was like, "Oh, have you been at Bobby Mackey's down in Wilder?" And I was like, no.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like...
Em Schulz: It's probably for the best that you would've gone without me first and just experienced it as a bar.
Christine Schiefer: I'm a, I'm a little scared. And she goes, "Oh, I go all the time. Like, it's great. I love it there." And I was like, wait, really? And she's like, "Yeah, I mean, it's really kind of hokey." But then she says to me...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And so at first I'm thinking like, uh, I don't know. Then she says to me, "Oh, but they're renovating within the next couple months. And they're like completely like changing and gutting the whole place." So she's like...
Em Schulz: We have to go.
Christine Schiefer: "So you should definitely... " I know she was like, "You definitely have to see it before they do that." And I was like, fuck. Okay. So I was like... All right.
Em Schulz: No. Not that. I'd say we have to go after when they've pissed everything off, then you're...
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, that too. But I wanna see like the original like bar, like, 'cause it's been...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: The same apparently forever. And now they're gonna try and modernize it and all this, but I wanna see it as like a honky tonk bar, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I lo... I love a dive.
Christine Schiefer: In its like glory. Right? Like, I wanna see it as the dive-y heyday bar... So I said, okay, okay. So I told Blaise, well, I told him we had a double date. I failed to tell him where we were going for a while. And then I told him a few days later and he goes, I just kind of like said it really casually. And he was like, "Wait, where are we going?" And I was like, "Oh, Bobby Mackey's, it's this bar." Like thinking somehow he would not know what it is. And he goes, "Umm, isn't that place really haunted?" And I went, "Yeah, but since you don't really believe it... " and he goes, "I don't wanna go there."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, wait a minute. So I was like, "Wait, you don't wanna go there?" And he's like, "No, can we go somewhere else?" And I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: Now this is interesting.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know.
Em Schulz: There's something about your house that has freaked him out officially, because...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. It's definitely...
Em Schulz: It's that third floor because I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's true. I think it's true.
Em Schulz: I... It's, you know what? He, that's, that's you and his version of like, whether or not you like salami. Because [chuckle] every now and then you're like, I love it. And then I have to log it in my head as like, oh, you like salami. And then the next day you'll go, "What are you talking about? I literally don't eat salami."
Christine Schiefer: I would never eat that. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So I, I'm constantly in a whiplash with you about your interests.
Christine Schiefer: I understand.
Em Schulz: And now he's finally you're getting your...
Christine Schiefer: I'm getting the whiplash returned.
Em Schulz: You're paying your dues. Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I sure am. And so I said, "Blaise... " and I, I, I, he's one of those people that like, if I really am like, I would like to do this or I... He will relent, right? But I'm also the kind of person who will not force someone into something. So I was like, "Blaise, I really wanna go. I don't wanna tell my friend like two days before that we can't go."
Em Schulz: My, my husband's a scaredy cat. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: My husband's too scared, but okay. He also framed it then like as, 'cause he's gonna listen to this and be like so mad at me... Umm, but he also framed it as more of a, so it's, it's down south of me in Kentucky. And he framed it as like, "Isn't that where all the Trumpers go?" Which it is.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And it's still a smoking bar. Like people still smoke in there. And he's like, "I don't know, that doesn't sound like my vibe." He did start off with, "Isn't that place really haunted?"
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: So that was the first...
Em Schulz: And he tried to recover. Tried to recover.
Christine Schiefer: Then he tried to recover. That's right. And so...
Em Schulz: And he was like, what are things that Christine doesn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And then I was like, well, I can't argue against that. Okay. This isn't salami. Trumpers are not my salami. You know what I mean? Like, I'm always in anti-Trump, anti-Trumper.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I'm, I'm mostly an anti salami, sometimes not.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And so...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: I said, "Okay, I'll see what I can do." And I kind of awkwardly texted my friend and was like, "Oh man, like Blaise is being really weird about it. I'm so surprised." She's like, "Oh, well, I mean we can change it." And Blaise was like, "Don't change it. Let's just go." So for two days, I felt really on edge about it. And then when we met on Friday, I was like, okay, I have to like tell Em when we record. But then the next morning, I woke up to a text from my friend being like, "Shit, my fiance's sick. Umm, so like, we have to cancel. I'm so sorry." And I was like...
Em Schulz: I'm just saying the cosmos really made sure that...
Christine Schiefer: The cosmos does not want me there. We've, I feel like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like we haven't really talked about it, but like, I've tried to go down folks... Like when Em and me were in town, like we've tried to go and something always comes up or something always stops us from going to the point that now I've got it in my head that I'm not supposed to be there. [laughter] So, when Blaise [0:16:22.3] ____.
Em Schulz: Christine started having like... We thought about like going there one time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And Christine started having nightmares about the place, like hurting us. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I felt, and it was so embarrassing. Like I had to tell Eva and Em like, I know it was my idea to go and like do a ghost hunt there when you guys visit because it's so close to me, and it's so much easier than like, traveling somewhere. And then like two weeks before I was like, you guys, I have to admit something, I'm really scared. Like too scared. Like I started having nightmares about falling into the pit in the basement and it was just horrible. Anyway, uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway, we ended up going somewhere else. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I never, so I'm still, still not there, but I'm afraid about them renovating 'cause I wanna see it before and after. Umm, so you better come on back and... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We can do, we can do a redo, maybe. I don't know. Maybe the universe will literally put roadblocks up.
Em Schulz: We'll just go in the middle of the day. If anyone's gonna be scared of the Trumpers midday, it'll be me. Don't worry. You'll have nothing to worry about. You'll have to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, excellent. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] He'll be fine.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I'll just be, la di da. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Lose your Social Security card there.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You'll have a good time. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but they do ghost tours like while you're there, which I didn't realize. My friend was like, "Oh yeah, they take you like downstairs... " And then I started getting really freaked out. So, uh, that's the story of how I almost, and then didn't go to Bobby Mackey's. So [0:17:44.3] ____.
Em Schulz: [laughter] And that's why you drink.
Christine Schiefer: And that's why I drink. Yes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, alone without any Trumpers just in my house. Umm...
Em Schulz: It sounds like you ended up having a good time then, I am fine with that.
Christine Schiefer: I, I mean, I did. I I I just stayed home and drank wine by myself.
Em Schulz: Worst case scenario is you didn't have to hang out with people who were against history. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, I'm not, [laughter] who don't believe in science. So I, I, you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, I felt like, all right, fine. It's not the worst outcome. Umm, you know, aside from my friend being sick. But anyway, Em, why do you drink this week?
Em Schulz: I, I drink in a stressed way because I have a lot to clean. The, the, the troll hole is at a threat level midnight currently.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no!
Em Schulz: I have to like wig... I've created a path to be able to walk to this laptop. Umm, but it's bad everywhere else.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Uh, you cannot see the floor. It has... And I'm leaving in two days for us to go back on our next leg, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I'm leaving early...
Christine Schiefer: You don't...
Em Schulz: Which I, I chose for myself, but I've never gone to Salt Lake and I am trying to...
Christine Schiefer: You've never been to Salt Lake?
Em Schulz: Mm-mm. I mean, I've like passed through like in an airport.
Christine Schiefer: We've been on tour.
Em Schulz: I know. But that was when we got really, really, uh, altitude-sick. And so I never got to appreciate the town.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I was like, I swear I've been there. Unless I'm having like a... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: No, I'm going, I'm going early this time. 'Cause I wanna like get like acclimated...
Christine Schiefer: Like experience the town.
Em Schulz: And then have fun versus like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just feeling like I wanna vomit and can't wait to leave. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I, I mean honestly, Em, that alone has been a huge improvement. Like uh last year, you were not even thinking about going anywhere before the show.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: So, yeah.
Em Schulz: I know. And I am, I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's a good sign.
Em Schulz: Thank you. And I'm trying to, umm, I'm very lucky to be in a position where I don't have a lot of responsibilities back home. Like, I, I feel bad that you have to dash off. I know you're happy to dash off 'cause you have loved ones to go home to. But while I don't have that, umm, I am like, if I'm going to a city, I'm probably never gonna go to again, I really need to like fucking commit to the bit and like...
Christine Schiefer: I totally get it. Umm, I think...
Em Schulz: And enjoy the city. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's such a healthy way to travel. I'm like, I wanna stay inside in my hotel room and DoorDash food 'cause I'm lazy.
Em Schulz: No, that sounds lovely too. That sounds like its own vacation. But I also know if I go back again and don't appreciate it, then I'll be like, oh man. Like, when am I ever gonna fly back there? Except for another show.
Christine Schiefer: I got you.
Em Schulz: So I'm, I'm excited...
Christine Schiefer: Well, it's very respectable, I think umm, I will just live vicariously through you and figure out what Salt Lake is like when you tell me about it.
Em Schulz: I'll text you pictures of the things...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You missed. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wonderful, wonderful. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, I'm, I'm looking forward to that. I think the thing that I drink, the reason why I drink, and it's, umm, also in retrospect is that, uh, it's finally happening, folks. I'm getting Leona on my side.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes, you did! Okay. That's true.
Em Schulz: I told you it happened eventually. And I was, I waited...
Christine Schiefer: I've been... Okay. You've...
Em Schulz: I played the long game.
Christine Schiefer: It, it wasn't even a long game. You've only met her like three times. And on the third time she was old enough to like, have fun with you.
Em Schulz: Third time's a charm.
Christine Schiefer: The other times, she just stared at you.
Em Schulz: Third time's a charm. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: It, it was indeed. And she really, uh, she taught Em all about Wobbly Mountain.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and the f... The first thing that she actually said to you aloud was, she tumbled off Wobbly Mountain, which is part of the game. And she landed and she just, out of nowhere, goes, "Sorry, Funcle Em," and we all were like, what? You said, huh?
Em Schulz: I was like, first of all, you know my name and second of all, what are we apologizing about?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle] We were all kind of frozen and she just kept apologizing for falling off Wobbly Mountain. I don't, I don't know, but we just, we took it as a win.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And, uh, my personal favorite, at one point, we, we were all eating pizza and she looked at me and she went, "Funcle Em, I'm so happy we both eat pizza." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And I went, and I went, "Me too. Let's... " [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You were like, "Christine, did you see that?" I was like, "Yep, I saw that."
Em Schulz: Yup. I, and, uh, I was not at all trying to like freak her out and like approach her at all. I, you know, I would also be doing the same thing if I had a kid where you're trying to teach her like boundaries and she doesn't have to do anything she doesn't wanna do. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was not expecting any physical interaction with this child. And three different times, I got organic hugs and I went...
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think that's why, I think it is because we didn't say like, you have to go... You know, I I...
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: I'm still struggling with that a little bit with my, with certain like older people in my family, where I'm like, not, not like immediate family, but you know, where I'm like, you know, she doesn't, we're teaching her, she doesn't have to hug you if she doesn't feel comfortable, you know, or things like that, which have been kind of an uphill battle for the... For the most part, fine.
Em Schulz: I feel like our generation and younger, all totally get it. Like, we're just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. I think there were just a few people who didn't quite catch on right away. Umm, but yeah, I think that's why. She's...
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, 'cause we all grew up with like, "Oh, go give them a hug. Go say hi... "
Christine Schiefer: "Kiss, yeah, go kiss the mama face... "
Em Schulz: It's like, I don't wanna give that creepy fucking person a hug.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, who is that lady? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: No. So I'm very excited that, umm, she knows I like pizza. Uh, she told me about...
Christine Schiefer: Which is like, what more does she need to know, really? I mean, that's the main thing.
Em Schulz: Well, 'cause at one point I went, "Are, are you happy that you're eating pizza?" She went, "I'm so happy." And then she went, "Funcle, Funcle Em, I'm so happy we both like pizza." And I went, "Now I'm in, I'm in... That's the green light. That's all I needed to know."
Christine Schiefer: Now you're in the fold. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And, umm, uh, what was I gonna say about her? Oh, she, we have started something over here at Schulz-Forth Manor, which is me and Allison's apartment, by the way...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, at Schulz-Forth Manor, we now have a, a, it's customary, we've picked it up from Queen Leona, Queen of Wobbly Mountain.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, that when you leave a a room...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You go, you go, "Chow chow!"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And so, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Which by the way was also new to me. I wanna add to everybody, that that was new to me when it happened in front of Em. I was like, listen, you and me both. I, I'm, I'm shook also.
Em Schulz: Every time she leaves a room with, with, uh, Christine's mom, she'd go, "Chow chow mom, chow chow."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Chow, chow." And I just sat there like, Em, I'm just as stunned as you are otherwise I would've told you about this.
Em Schulz: And she'll say, uh, I guess she over... Uh she's overheard for, you know, her, her whole lifetime at this point that Christine and Blaise, before they leave, they'll say like, "Oh, you look good. Bye." Or something. Because now when she leaves a room...
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't, uh, you know...
Em Schulz: I don't know what started it, but I witnessed it.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is that as she was leaving, she would just say out loud, over and over again, "I look good. I look good." Until someone would agree. And that was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Until someone said, "You look good." And she'd go, yeah.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Chow chow, mom. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Chow chow. Yeah. It, it really is the wildest thing. Like, "I look good... " And it's funny 'cause she says it in just such a very calm, like matter of fact way, it's not really like, "Oh, I look so good," like in this like, sassy way.
Em Schulz: No, it's just like a factual, "I look good."
Christine Schiefer: A factual, "I look good." And like she usually does. 'Cause she is wearing, you know, a big pink puffy jacket and like a lion hat. So I'm like, "You do look good," but she needs someone to... And my mom was like, "You look great." And she's like, "I look good." And I'm like, "Mom, you have to say she looks good." "You look good." "Chow chow!" I mean, it's just the weirdest thing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But I'm so glad that it stuck with you because, uh, chow chow really became a hit. Umm...
Em Schulz: It did. It's, it's now become, umm, multi coastal now over here we...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: We, we're trying out chow chow quite a lot over here. So.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] chow chow's making waves, you know?
Em Schulz: Kiss, kiss. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Kiss, kiss.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. Anyway, that's why I drink because Leona and I, the, the alliance is forming before our very eyes.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. I love to see it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's beautiful.
Em Schulz: And with that, that's why we drink. I don't know why everyone else drinks, but this is your reminder to drink some water, you thirsty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. My basic bitch Stanley that I bought before I realized how basic bitchy it was, but I love it, it has, uh, a Bigfoot sticker from Lisa Lampanelli on it.
Em Schulz: I love it. I feel like you, uh, just missed the VSCO era and now you're really leaning into the Stanley era. Remember when your sister...
Christine Schiefer: I did.
Em Schulz: Kept saying you were like a wannabe VSCO girl, but it'll only kind of pass?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was fucking rude, by the way. I was like, what the hell is that? Umm, and they...
Em Schulz: But they were like, you know, they're Hydro Flasks and now you've got your Stanley. It kinda works...
Christine Schiefer: No, I, I know, and I, I, I kind of also had a Hydro Flask, so I'm like, man, I think I just follow the water trend, which is...
Em Schulz: That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Embarrassing. But you know, I...
Em Schulz: Your doctor would be proud. That's a, that's a trend you should follow.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say... It's a trend that actually makes my life a little better, so I might as well lean into it, you know?
Em Schulz: Well, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: Tell me.
Em Schulz: Speaking of water, I've got my LD, my liquid death, and I say we crack into it. I love the theatrics of it all, you know? Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you do. And I do, and we all do.
Em Schulz: So, okay. I have, I tried to throw a fun little spin on this, umm, because we were, like you said, we were gonna record on Friday. It's still only a few days away from that, so we're still within the week, and I'm gonna lean into it. Umm, we were gonna record on Friday, which happened to be the seventh anniversary...
Christine Schiefer: St. Nicho... Oh, wait no.
Em Schulz: What? The seventh anniversary...
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] I said, I said St. Nicholas day, which is December 6th. Never mind. I don't know what...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Planet I'm living on.
Em Schulz: Whatever calendar you're working off of, you have a good time. But I'm over here on Earth.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why... Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. My, my mistake. I'll come back.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Well, this was the seventh anniversary of me asking you, proposing, if you will, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: To start a podcast with me and to take this crazy adventure that we call life. And so uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Hold our hands together. Oh, it's beautiful.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Uh, and so as the seventh anniversary of you and me building something...
Christine Schiefer: Oh! We have it on our...
Em Schulz: Greater than we could ever imagine. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: We have our, uh, on the calendar, it's listed as Podcast Conception Day, which is an interesting choice of words that we committed to seven years ago.
Em Schulz: A long time... Or six...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's six years ago.
Em Schulz: It was the day you and I conceived something, a, a, a miracle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A miracle...
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: A twinkle in our eye was finally brought to life.
Em Schulz: That's the truth. And, umm, to be on brand, I thought that we should cover, uh, the "Seven Gates of Hell".
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. What?
Em Schulz: And by that, I mean, this is a bit of a great value, "Seven Gates of Hell." Umm, and we're a bit of a great value brand in general.
Christine Schiefer: Good, 'cause I, I feel like... Yeah, I was gonna say, I think if it were anything more, nobody would know what to do. So...
Em Schulz: So this is the "Seven Gates of Hell" of Collinsville, Illinois. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What? Wait a minute. What's happening now? Now I'm in.
Em Schulz: And also, we're gonna do a little drop off at Acid Bridge, which happens to be nearby the Gates of Hell. So let's talk about both of them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Are you on board? Great.
Christine Schiefer: I just, umm, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wanna say willingly, but I'm not even sure if that's true. I'm just, I'm here for the ride.
Em Schulz: None of this has been willing. It's seven years of just dragging each other one direction or the other. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you're right. Like I didn't even barely agree to doing the podcast to start with, but again, I'm very thankful about it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. This is also the seventh anniversary of you saying no and rejecting me. So...
Christine Schiefer: Which is, we always kind of brush over that part. But just to be clear, I did say no, everybody. And, umm, Em, thank God was, uh, insistent and Blaise told me I needed a hobby. So here we are. Umm, thank God. Thank God.
Em Schulz: Blaise was on to something. So maybe it's for the best you didn't go to Bobby Mackey's without me and cheat on me.
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's why when he says shit like that... Cheat on you. [laughter] That's why, that's why when he says shit like that, I'm like, oh, fuck. Maybe he knows something, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe he's, he's got one of those like weird guts, where he doesn't wanna believe in anything. Like he's a skeptic, but he listens to his tummy, you know?
Christine Schiefer: And that doesn't, that makes me nervous. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Collinsville, Illinois, it's no Galena.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: I'm still in love with her. So Galena, if you're listening, it's not, you know?
Christine Schiefer: You love her. We got a message from Galena.
Em Schulz: I get quite a few messages from Galena. Everyone sees the cobblestone street, and they just gotta let me know about it. I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, no. Fun-Funcle Em...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: We got, I don't know if you saw this in our Slack, because you don't go in Slack, but I finally went in Slack and I saw that the, this is maybe a, an incentive that like the, somebody who works there, like either a tourism board or something, reached out and said like, "Come on down to Galena." [chuckle] And I said, "Em, we're doing this." I tagged you in it. So you better go look at it after this.
Em Schulz: Okay. Uh, yeah. Why don't we just tell Andrew that we need to go to Galena for a show?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't think we even have to because we've already been invited, baby.
Em Schulz: Okay. Hey, okay. Okay. Okay. Well, maybe, maybe Collinsville will be the next one. I don't know. We can perform at all "Seven Gates of Hell." What do you think?
Christine Schiefer: Why not?
Em Schulz: Okay. Collinsville, Illinois is about 15 miles away from St. Louis. Just to give you an idea where in the world we are.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: At its peak, which was a long time ago, the town's population was as large as the population of London.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Today it is now 24,000 people, which is roughly Fredericksburg, Virginia.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Okay.
Em Schulz: Just a fun fact. This, by the way...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: We're gonna really get into the fun facts of this place.
Christine Schiefer: Can't wait.
Em Schulz: The town is in the Bible Belt, which you and I are both familiar with. It is also in the heart of the Corn Belt, which I wonder if you know what that is...
Christine Schiefer: Dab. Dab. Of course. The breadbasket.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Corny...
Christine Schiefer: The Corn Belt.
Em Schulz: Belts is not what I was talking about Christine, but, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my bad. Yeah. Now I'm the corny one.
Em Schulz: Umm, and fun fact, this is a personal favorite and we're gonna do a mini deep dive for the next few bullets. This place is also the horseradish capital of the world.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. I knew I had a, I had a liking for this place.
Em Schulz: They even have an annual Horseradish Festival, which will be held this year on our birthday weekend.
Christine Schiefer: You're kidding me. Okay. Well, Vic... Uh, tourism board of Collins... What is it? Collinsville?
Em Schulz: Collinsville.
Christine Schiefer: Tourism Board of Collinsville, please reach out.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, in case you were interested in not doing something with me on our birthday, but going to Collinsville for the Horseradish Festival...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds good so far.
Em Schulz: You could experience...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: A cornhole, a cornhole tournament. There is a craft village. There is a Bloody Mary contest.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: There's a car show, a bike show, live music, a 5K run, games for everybody, and then a root ceremony, including a root toss where I'm pretty sure they like, like shot put horseradish.
Christine Schiefer: [0:32:13.6] ____ horseradish.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Everything but the car show, bike show and, uh, running...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm in.
Em Schulz: I think the point is there's something for everyone. So someone else can do that stuff. But...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Great.
Em Schulz: I'm really, I'm very interested in this root toss. 'Cause it does sound like...
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: They just throw horseradish across the field, and that's their ceremony.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a pumpkin chuck, but with horseradish.
Em Schulz: Yes. You've got it.
Christine Schiefer: Loving it. Loving it.
Em Schulz: Umm, I also wanted to throw a fun fact about horseradish out there, that it is not a type of radish, which is what my brain went to, because radish is in the word. So...
Christine Schiefer: Well, sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, but they are both part of the same family.
Christine Schiefer: The, the horse family.
Em Schulz: Not horse, [chuckle] and not radish. Radish and horseradish, uh, both come from the mustard family, which is also called the cabbage family...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So I guess mustards and cabbage are the same thing, in science.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like mustard greens, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Well, so they're cousins of the cauliflower...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Which is interesting to me because they all kind of have that snappy...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's interesting to me that they have a family tree, but, you know, I guess that's besides the point.
Em Schulz: If I, if there was an Ancestry.com for vegetables, I'd lose my fucking mind. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it sounds like you're literally reading off it right now.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I've only gotten like a cousin in, I haven't gotten to like the, the real web of it all. So, umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The me... The twice removed and all that good stuff.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] So, uh, the other fun fact I wanna give to you is horseradish is not related to radishes or horses, but the reason it's called horseradish is because originally, there's two versions of how this went, is that horse of horseradish was originally a figurative term for strong because it has a strong taste.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: And radish is actually Latin for the word root. So at the time, it just meant a strong root.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's interesting.
Em Schulz: Also, the other version is that horseradish is a over time, bastardized word for coarse radish.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And so if it were coarse, uh, a course root, that would also make sense. Because in its original form, it is coarse and...
Christine Schiefer: Very chuckable.
Em Schulz: Very chuckable. And the last thing I'm gonna say, which since we're all about the science in every which way impossible form on And That's Why We Drink. [chuckle] Fun fact, horseradishes are not actually spicy or have that kind of bite to them.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: And until they are ground up or macerated in some way, which includes being chewed. So if you were to just plop it in your mouth as a whole root, it is not spicy at all. It's only when you actually start... It's like a volatile compound as they say...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: Where once you actually start chewing into it and grinding on it, then that heat feeling is because of a release of cells...
Christine Schiefer: Is like release of it... What?
Em Schulz: These cells are called isothiocyanates and...
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: And when you chew on them and they are released into the, into oxygen, that's what creates the hotness on your... When it mixes with your saliva. So it's not actually spicy until...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, that's pretty crazy.
Em Schulz: Until everything reacts with each other.
Christine Schiefer: Like, so if you lick it, you wouldn't taste spicy. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Fun fact. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Did you know I love, love horseradish?
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you did, right?
Em Schulz: I took a guess.
Christine Schiefer: Like, uh, deep... Deep down. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I took a guess. Umm, because I hate it.
Christine Schiefer: I ate some last night.
Em Schulz: That's great.
Christine Schiefer: On my bread...
Em Schulz: You know what?
Christine Schiefer: I went downstairs at midnight and had a midnight snack of bread with horseradish and Swiss cheese. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It was delicious... It was delicious.
Em Schulz: I bet someone else agrees with you, but it's not me. [laughter] Umm. I don't know. I don't know, to be honest, I'm not sure. [chuckle] I do like a radish and I, I am weird because I don't know if this is weird, but I've, I've never met anybody who's agreed with me as I shared this information with them that I like to just eat radishes like they're grapes. Like just plop 'em in and chew 'em. I...
Christine Schiefer: Mm, I mean, my mom, but she eats a lot of weird things, so I don't know that she's the best example. Umm...
Em Schulz: I love a radish. But like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they kind of have like, they're zingy, right? They're a little bit zingy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I thought. I... First, well, a while I thought I was allergic to them. I didn't know other people felt that. [laughter] It was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But I like it.
Christine Schiefer: I love that you're like, so I just kept eating them like grape. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I just kept going. Anyway, that's my, umm, that's my bit of a deep dive, shallow dive on horseradish.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, listen, I am thrilled.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Well, hey, if you ever need to know where the Horseradish Festival is, Collinsville, Illinois, which has their own personal urban legend, that their town is the entrance to hell and will be the gates of this, of hell will open to anyone willing to pass through and go through the rituals of seeing each gate.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: Uh, if you wanna pass...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: If, if you wanna pass through the gates, there are seven that you must pass through in a particular order to summon hell to this plane. So it's almost like hell is hidden in plain sight, and the only way to actually access it is to do these things.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: Umm, these gates are actually, umm, old railroad trestles or like the bridge overpasses over like a, a road...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Or a river. And it would have a train on the top. Umm, this town used to be a mining town, so they have a lot of railroad trestles and...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! Love a mining town.
Em Schulz: And seven of them have become known as the individual gates to hell, if you drive through them in order.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: What makes it extra creepy is that a lot of them have graffiti on them, or like nature's reclaiming them. They just look super scary. Maybe not. I saw a picture of one just looked like kind of not that bad, but at night when like, the teens are out...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, I'm scared already.
Em Schulz: I know. All of a sudden, it's a real creepy place.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: The best way to find these bridges is to drive down the one road that goes through all of them, which is called Lebanon Road. I hope it's Lebanon Road and not Lebanon, or I know it, it looks like Lebanon, but then there's a type of bologna called Lebanon bologna. And I didn't know it was...
Christine Schiefer: I mean there's a Lebanon, Ohio called Lebanon. So, you know who knows.
Em Schulz: But the Lebanon bologna, I'm mispronouncing it right now. It's like L, le, Lebanon or something.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: It's something... RJ's obsessed with it. And then I tried talking about it with him. He was like, that's not how it's pronounced. So anyway, we're hoping that it's Lebanon Road, folks.
Christine Schiefer: You fool. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And ironically, to get to this road, it originally starts as Church Street.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So you have to take Church Street to get to the "Seven Gates of Hell".
Christine Schiefer: Sounds right.
Em Schulz: Umm, so you take this road, it will lead you out of Collinsville and to make the ritual work, there are specific rules, which I guess depending on what group of teenagers you talk to, there's different versions for what the right rules are.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But like some will say, you have to go through the final gate at midnight. Some say you have to go through the first gate at midnight, you know? Umm, but it's important to stop at each gate and really take in the night, which I appreciate because it's giving the ritual intent and you're not just speeding through them to say like, oh, I drove through all seven and now I'm in hell. Ha ha ha.
Christine Schiefer: R... Yeah. Right, right.
Em Schulz: Ha ha ha ha. Uh, you stop at each one, you like, try to just enjoy the silence, see what you're experiencing, take it all in. Umm, and that's kind of it. You just drive from each location, which actually sounds like a lovely date idea if we're doing this during the day, is like, let's just go to bunch of...
Christine Schiefer: I'm down, let's go.
Em Schulz: Let's just go to a bunch of little like parks or areas with a bridge and just like pull over, enjoy the nature.
Christine Schiefer: Like nature.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It feels kind of lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, if it, if it weren't for the teens, I'd be in...
Em Schulz: If it weren't for the teen... Well, they're at night. So if you go during the day...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great. Yeah. I mean, great. And then I'll bring my horseradish sandwich and it'll be beautiful.
Em Schulz: I will bring a jar of horseradish and I'll put it in the picnic basket, and you and I can go and look at bridges. You know, someone's stepdad is obsessed with this idea. If you have a stepdad in Illinois...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: This is his birthday dream to just go to all seven bridges and just be allowed to fucking stare at it, and talk about it all they want.
Christine Schiefer: And appreciate nature and bridges. Like what more does a stepdad want? Right. Good call.
Em Schulz: Which makes me wonder, are stepfathers the escorts to hell?
Christine Schiefer: The answer is yes. But don't tell Tim that I said that.
Em Schulz: Well, he's the escort to whatever hell comes through trains. Well, I guess the railroad trestles, that still works.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say it's pretty, pretty spot on if you ask me.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Okay. Renata, do not take Tim to Collinsville, Illinois. He, you might be in trouble.
Christine Schiefer: It's too late. They're prob... They're literally probably already there.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, the very first gate just happens to be near a cemetery. Umm, totally unassuming. It does say it's not assuming...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: But I feel like if you're seeing a cemetery on your way to the gates of hell, it's not that unassuming.
Christine Schiefer: No, it fits.
Em Schulz: Umm, so there's nothing much to really say about that one. You just kind of pass through, maybe enjoy the cemetery. I actually think cemetery is very peaceful, so you can make that part of your like picnic day. Umm, and then half a mile down the road is the second gate. And this one has like a lot of prolific lore to it.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: People claim to see, yikes, bodies hanging from the overpass...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God!
Em Schulz: Which adds to the creepy factor it's giving Bunny Man Bridge...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which I did see pictures of it. It really doesn't look any less similar than Bunny Man Bridge. It's just a random fucking bridge that teenagers say at night, you'll see shadows hanging from the overpass.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: But if you're a teen in Collinsville, Illinois, just get ready. That's the one that you gotta be worried about. Another version of the story is that there were at one point, two best friends who fell in love with the same girl and they fell into this rivalry. Umm, and some say that in the story, one guy hanged himself on the overpass out of like heartbreak because the girl picked his friend. Others say that he killed his friend so that way he could be with the girl. But either way...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: It's... The story ends up being that one of them was hanged on the overpass, and now you can see their shadow at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Even though there's no record of it. Although there... A lot of these were not actually recorded at any point, there's another story that a Black man or honestly probably Black child, uh, was murdered at this bridge by a lynch mob.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus. Oh, Jesus.
Em Schulz: And I don't know why we're inserting a fun little racist tidbit into an urban legend, but...
Christine Schiefer: With an urban legend. Wow.
Em Schulz: Where there... And, uh, like I said, there are very, there are big patches of lynchings that went undocumented. So maybe there really was something, but if there wasn't, then why did anyone create this storyline to begin with? Umm, anyway, so at, so the whichever version you believe, someone was hanged there, umm, and as you drive by, there are said to be ghosts at this bridge. A lot of people swear that they see a man and a boy, umm, just standing as you drive by and just stare at you as you drive away, straight out of a horror movie.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Yup.
Em Schulz: Anyway, the second bridge seems to be the one that I like the least so far. Let's leave it there.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: Then there's the third and the fourth gates. They're both so close to each other in proximity that they are often clumped into each other as just one gate. They're called the Twin Gates, umm, because of how close they are. They happen to be surrounded by a patch of woods, which feels like just again, meant for a horror movie.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: In this patch where the Twin Gates are, apparently this spot is always eerily quiet. No birds come here. There's no bugs. The way that, it's like the forestry is, is that there's no breeze that comes through. No rusting leaves. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: This one's giving Devil's Tramping Ground.
Christine Schiefer: I was just gonna say, what was that circle? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. The circle. Yes. Uh, so imagine that circle, but now with two massive bridges going through it.
Christine Schiefer: No thanks.
Em Schulz: The only sound people hear is of water from a nearby stream. Apparently, part of the ritual is to just park there and just enjoy listening to the water, but the sound often lulls people into thinking that they're hearing something else. And a lot of people have said that they've...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Heard what sounds like another car in the distance approaching them and getting so close, that they think it might hit them in their car...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: Which, like, how loud must this sound be that you think another car is about to fucking hit you? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I mean...
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if it's just be...
Em Schulz: Maybe it has happened if, like, I mean, if you're a teenager in the middle of the night, maybe you do hear another teenager coming up in the middle of the night and then they just kind of turned into part of the legend. But...
Christine Schiefer: Right. I wonder if like, you hear about it in advance and so it's like kind of you're primed for it and then you're listening. You have to sit there and listen to the running water for 10 minutes and it like starts building...
Em Schulz: It's trance... Trance-y. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Tra... Yeah. 'Cause you know, when you listen to, like people say if you listen to like white noise for a long time, you can start like hearing things that aren't there. Umm, or staring at something for a long time. Maybe it's that kind of phenomenon. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Feels like an audio version of like Bloody Mary or something where all of a sudden you, your brain gets tricked into...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Hearing or seeing new things.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, so that's the Twin Gates, where it will be very creepily silent, but once you really focus in on the sounds, you'll start hearing other things that aren't really there.
Christine Schiefer: And that's three and four, right?
Em Schulz: That's three and four.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so, and the really creepy thing of course is that a lot of people swear they hear a car coming up to them and then they open their eyes and not nothing's there. The sound stops abruptly. Umm, but I guess that's how you know that the ritual's working, if all of a sudden you think you're about to get hit by a car. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're like, yes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It worked.
Em Schulz: We did it. Uh, people who traveled to all seven gates have used different gates as spots for occult activities. So this is where I'll tell you that the Twin Gates, gates three and four happen to be the most popular, probably because they've got their own name, their own... Their own legend of like some-someone coming up to you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But at all seven of these areas, you should be careful about, maybe it's not just teens in the woods, maybe it's nefarious teens in the woods. Ha ha ha.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So now it's getting scary in like a real life world too.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Not just paranormal, super duper.
Em Schulz: Ding, ding, ding, Christine. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: You might run into other people while you're out, especially those performing rites after midnight, which I guess again is technically a good thing if you're trying to open a portal to hell so maybe you wanna find them. I don't know. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It's all mixed signals here. Like how far, it's like I wanted to go through the portal of hell, but not like that. It's like, well...
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. [laughter] It's like...
Christine Schiefer: You can't like choose.
Em Schulz: It's like I feel like you could at least like keep them within your eyesight and you just kind of follow them through and let them do all the dirty work...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But don't like say hi.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You could... Like keep one eye, like keep one foot out the door, metaphorically speaking.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like you can run still.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, you might run into other people. So just a warning. Umm, gate five, here's another warning. There is no good place to pull over. So a lot of people, even though this is technically against the rules, just for safety, they do just drive through and not like stop to appreciate it because there's nowhere to do it. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: It barely bends in a way that you're not able to even see the bridge until you're already driving through it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So, umm, there's really, it's kind of just the inconvenient one. There's always one, you know?
Christine Schiefer: There's, ugh, gotta be one attention-seeking one, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Wouldn't know who that is in our group, but, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Certainly not me. Me neither, weirdly enough.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It could be any of us.
Christine Schiefer: Can't, can't... Hmm.
Em Schulz: So the sixth gate is often confused with the nearby Acid Bridge. Umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Acid Bridge is...
Christine Schiefer: Some people...
Em Schulz: Also haunted. So the ghost stories of Acid Bridge and the potential satanic gates of hell stories of the sixth gate, they overlap a lot. And so if you hear someone say like, oh, Acid Bridge is a gate to hell, eh, close, but no cigar. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Noted.
Em Schulz: Allegedly, Acid Bridge is the most haunted bridge in Illinois. So if you accidentally end up...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: There instead of the sixth gate, you're still gonna have a good time. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: I sure do.
Em Schulz: But imagine...
Christine Schiefer: In fact, I'd rather go there. It seems like less work than all the other ones.
Em Schulz: It does... [laughter] Especially when the work so far has been just appreciate nature. Yeah. It's like, ugh, no, thanks.
Christine Schiefer: Like who do you think I am? Ugh.
Em Schulz: Umm, but I will say Acid Bridge, it's the most haunted bridge in Illinois, but can you imagine like accidentally getting there and you're on the sixth of seven gates, and you just fuck up the ritual?
Christine Schiefer: Oh God...
Em Schulz: I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: Infuriating.
Em Schulz: Be like, you know what? No. Now I'm just gonna appreciate this fucking bridge. 'Cause I'm, I'm over it. I'm not doing any more work.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: The road from, umm, we'll talk about Acid Bridge in a little bit, but I just wanna finish this out real quick. The road from gate six to gate seven, there are a lot of long winding turns and it's actually a lot of people like give up and turn around 'cause they think they either missed it or it doesn't exist, or they read the rules wrong. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Or I'm throwing up 'cause I'm carsick. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or that. And so once you do find it, if you pass through gate seven, you're supposed to get out of your car and wait, or you're supposed to stop just before the gate and wait. But either way, you are waiting to be greeted by Satan himself. So you'll be probably waiting a long time. Umm, if you wait long enough...
Christine Schiefer: Waiting to be greeted by Satan. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: The story goes that Satan himself will escort you through this final gate into hell.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, how helpful.
Em Schulz: But if Satan, if Satan is busy, he might send a proxy, which, uh, is he'll just send a random demon to greet you. So I guess that's where a lot of people will say, like, "I saw shadow in the woods and I assumed that was my escort," you know?
Christine Schiefer: Escort.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: What the F? Why do you want that?
Em Schulz: As a 17-year-old, I can tell you, I would've wanted it, for sure I would've wanted it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I can't, I, I like, I feel like I would've said I wanted it and then like halfway through I would've been like, I'm really afraid.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I, I would've wanted it so bad, [laughter] I would've wanted it so bad.
Christine Schiefer: Like for... But like, what, what is the, I know that it's teenagers and they don't think th-things through necessarily, but like in your mind, like back, way back when, what would you envision if you really believed it? Like, what would you think would happen? Like it would, somebody would appear and you'd just run away? Or would you like follow them into hell? Like...
Em Schulz: I think if, if you're asking me to think like a 17-year-old, I literally my...
Christine Schiefer: Like, like you yourself. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Right. I think my, my frontal lobe was not fully developed and I didn't think what would happen next. I just wanted that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see.
Em Schulz: I hadn't thought about after the fact...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I, for it could have been...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see.
Em Schulz: A literal murderer, and I had not thought through the fact that I could be in danger, I just wanted to see something...
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: Happen so that I was the person [chuckle] that had a success story of doing these rituals. I would have been like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We...
Em Schulz: "Oh, it worked." And then that's, that's where I think it ended.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I... Yeah, I can't, I can't deny... I mean I would have been with you. Like there's no doubt that I would have joined in, like for sure, but, uh, I think the whole time I would have been like, "Guys, what do we do when the, when Satan shows up?" Umm. And would've probab...
Em Schulz: See, I don't think I would have actually thought it was Satan, I would... I think I would have just wanted something, even if it was like a little bunny rabbit to run by, that I could have gone home and told everybody, "Oh, he was the escort to hell." Like I I just wanted...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. I get... Yeah, yeah I get that.
Em Schulz: I wanted something to happen. But it did not occur to me that that something could be just so bad.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. Okay. Thank you for reminiscing. Umm...
Em Schulz: You're welcome. [chuckle] Like 17-year-old me, I was...
Christine Schiefer: About your teenage brain development.
Em Schulz: I was a dummy, but I was fun, you know? Like I would [laughter] have a good time.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah. I would have... And I was a sucker, I would have gotten sucked right in. If you would tell me, ask me two times. The second time I would've been like, "All right. I'll go."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, no, I would have... I... And I would have probably dragged you on the third time if you were still saying no, so...
Christine Schiefer: Eh, I would've joined you. Yeah. No doubt.
Em Schulz: Anyway, if you wait long enough, Satan or his proxy, a bunny rabbit, I guess in my opinion. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What the fuck? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Will come greet you. People also often say that they hear dogs in the distance, so they think that, that could be like hellhounds escorting them through the final gate.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: I think people will just find any reason to consider it a success that they, they got there.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and I think they did a smart thing by saying you have to just wait as long as it takes...
Em Schulz: Right. Eventually something will happen. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's like something's gonna happen. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Even if it's like a bird flies by or you see headlights in the distance, like something will happen, and if you wait long enough in the dark, you'll get creeped out. So...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Umm, so what hell actually wants from you was unclear because like once you've entered the portal, it's like, okay, now what? Like do we get tortured?
Christine Schiefer: That's what I wonder. Right.
Em Schulz: Is there like a pact, a blood pact that I've made and I didn't know? Like what... What hap- what happens next?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I think this is where... This is no surprise to anybody, but I think the guess is that this is just an urban legend that teenagers kind of do as a tradition in the area, and then they go home. Because the next bullet I have is...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: If you want out after all of this, and like this wasn't fun for you, if you got freaked out, this is how you get out of the seven gates, is you just do everything in reverse, which is to me that, that just sounds like a U-turn, just, [chuckle] just go home.
Christine Schiefer: So, okay, but you don't have to reverse through...
Em Schulz: No. That would be hysterical and so dangerous. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god, 'cause I'm thinking of the winding roads, and I'm like, I'm vomiting in my mouth right now, just thinking about how carsick I am. Like this is hell already.
Em Schulz: If you're doing it backwards, you're technically just swallowing it.
Christine Schiefer: This is my... [laughter] Okay. Gross. So it's just getting worse for me, basically, it's just like my own personal hell. Okay. Got it.
Em Schulz: Although you are the best reverse driver I've ever met, so if I were to have that with anyone, I would want it to be you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: That's true, if I'm driving, I won't be carsick. So I'll drive, you tell me what to do, you know I don't know where I am at any given moment. So you do the directions, I'll drive. [laughter] And, and we'll be good. We'll be fine.
Em Schulz: If you want out, you do everything in reverse, except drive in reverse, but, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good.
Em Schulz: You start at gate seven and then you do the whole trip, six, five, four, three, two, one, as you pass through the first/the final gate, you are to look in the rear view mirror and glance back as a way of like saying goodbye to your time at that gate.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: But you're also allegedly supposed to be able to see hell for a moment as you are leaving the area. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Now that's what I would do. I'd be like, "I'll do the safe version." You know?
Em Schulz: I'll do all of this just to look back in the mirror later. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Locals who, locals who grew up in this area, they have done the bridge thing, and they have seen reflections of eyes in their pictures, like they've been watched all night. Other people claim that they have seen...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Shadowy ghost dogs or hellhounds. Some people say that they've just heard dogs, but also remember, you're like in an area of nature, maybe someone's just walking their fucking dog. You know? Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fair point.
Em Schulz: One person who used to go all the time as a teenager, a nefarious teenager, said, "At night, it literally changes. The urban legend pales in the face of the truth." So, umm, that would have been me at 17, I would've been like, "They don't even get it, man."
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Yeah. [laughter] Your live journal. Yeah. I was like, hmm, wow, anything else to elaborate? No? Just that? Cool.
Em Schulz: Well, some people said that they would... It was a, a common thing to put flour on your cars and as you would appreciate the nature, you'd get up later...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And see hand prints all over the car. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: A lot of people have claimed to see full bodied apparitions, balls of light, hear weird sounds...
Christine Schiefer: I can see the, the stepdad, the stepdad now being like, "You put what on my car?"
Em Schulz: I know. And it's just like all the hands...
Christine Schiefer: "I'm not putting flour on my perfectly good car."
Em Schulz: All the hands are real tiny 'cause they're raccoons, you know? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Pfft! They're just like eating off your car. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And it's like, "No, no, that's, that's, that's Satan's escorts." It's like, "Dude, it's the raccoons." Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Could be both.
Em Schulz: Could be both. Uh, people have seen full bodied apparitions, they've felt a sense of dread, they felt being stared at in the woods, which ghostly or not, I don't like feeling stared at in the woods. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's not... Nah. Me neither.
Em Schulz: And warning, people have, uh, also discovered a lot of animal bones out here, which could be from nature or they could be evidence of sacrifices. People do go out there and still do occult things, so look out. Umm, one of the ghosts that people have gotten the pictures of a lot happens to be, according to the legends, the victim of a car crash that happened on this route, and this was by Acid Bridge. So...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: The Acid Bridge story, the reason it's called Acid Bridge is because I'm guessing in like the '70s-ish era, umm, this was where a bunch of kids would go and do acid, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Drug hangout.
Em Schulz: It was, it was where all the nefarious teens were. I'm telling you, this area is just riddled with them.
Christine Schiefer: My goodness!
Em Schulz: So teens were hanging out on the bridge, they were droppin' acid, and listening to rock and roll, and...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! God forbid.
Em Schulz: One of the friends... This is a fucking wild version of the story. There are other versions, but this one like really, umm, lures you in very quickly, it's got a hook. One of the friends who was dropping acid had a...
Christine Schiefer: He's got a hook?
Em Schulz: Had a... Had a gun.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck!
Em Schulz: And he...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Started randomly shooting targets for fun, like just like, oh, there's a tree, let's see if I can shoot it. Bam.
Christine Schiefer: Super.
Em Schulz: One of the bullets ricocheted off of the guardrail, and hit one of them in the head.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Home girl survived.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: But the friends panicked, thought they had killed her, and so they threw her over the bridge, and then they actually killed her because she drowned in the river.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: The guardrail at this bridge does still have bullet holes in it, but to be fair...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: I would not be surprised if people have shot at that thing more than once, so I don't know if it's like from...
Christine Schiefer: Fair point.
Em Schulz: The actual lore. Anyway, another version is that teens were doing acid by the bridge, and, uh, either way, they were speeding through or they were driving through, and didn't see headlights in time, but they swerved to avoid a crash and ended up crashing into the actual wall. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: There's a bunch of stories of some sort of car accident with a bunch of teenagers who were being reckless, and, uh, it just sounds like there is a ghost from one of these stories that now sits in this area, and a lot of people see her as they drive by. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Woo.
Em Schulz: A similar story at the fourth gate, which is one of the Twin Gates, is that, again, teens were speeding through and they saw another car last minute and swerved, ended up killing themselves. Umm, at one of the gates, a ghostly car appears as if like you're about to cross each other's paths...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And then it follows you in the dark for a while before vanishing. So, then...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Some people think that's the escort to hell, driving you or making sure you're getting to hell properly. Or it could be...
Christine Schiefer: Right. He's in a Honda Civic and you're like...
Em Schulz: Another teenager doing the...
Christine Schiefer: Right. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It could be anyone... It could be anything. But as a teenager, my brain would have immediately thought, this is part of the ritual.
Christine Schiefer: Sa... Yeah. Satan drives uh an '08 Honda. Yeah. Uh absolutely.
Em Schulz: He, he drives, uh, an, an F-150 or something, I don't know. And he...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess we're in the Bible Belt, huh? Okay.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So anyway, a lot of people see a ghostly car that apparently then vanishes out of nowhere and like the gates at Acid Bridge, people will leave flour on their car to find hand prints, but apparently, the hand prints here are much smaller like that of a little girl's or like a raccoon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a raccoon. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I have seen enough possums as of Fredericksburg, Virginia, I know they got little thumbs.
Christine Schiefer: You sure have.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They got something going on.
Christine Schiefer: You sure have. Yup.
Em Schulz: If you park near Acid Bridge and leave your car unlocked, some spirit or entity might crawl in behind you, but also if you're leaving your car unlocked in the middle of the night, a human could fucking crawl in there, so this is where...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I'd rather have a spirit, I think. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I'm only, I'm only... I know usually I'm all about the like believing things, but we really leaned in heavy that this was gonna be an urban legend, and on top of it, as someone...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Who was a 17-year-old, who thought there's no way I'm being a dumbass and yet only did dumbassery, if you're 17 [chuckle] and you're listening to this, please fucking lock your car. I don't care what the urban legends say, do not just leave it unlocked and wait for somebody to enter. It is not a ghost.
Christine Schiefer: No. No.
Em Schulz: It is a literal murderer. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Don't, don't play around with that. No, no.
Em Schulz: Do not play around. Always lock your car. Umm, so a lot of people say that something crawls into their car and hides in the back seat, and it's like I could be somewhere...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: With a literal fucking weapon.
Christine Schiefer: And also like if it's a ghost, why does the car need to be unlocked? It do... It doesn't even make sense.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Like can't, can't it get in without unlocking and opening the door? So just...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Lock it and it'll get in if it wants to.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's the voice of reason...
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry about it.
Em Schulz: That, that we needed...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, keep in mind, like I said, that's, yeah, a PSA, like be actually safe, please, [laughter] like a lot of these... I'm all for being 17 and doing things that like your mom would disapprove of probably, but please try to do it with some caution of like, if you're on a road...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just...
Em Schulz: And there's no place to pull over, maybe don't park in the middle of the night and get out, someone will hit you. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Don't get yourself killed, please. Yeah. Just be careful.
Em Schulz: Car crashes in the middle of the night, especially from kids trying to like pull off the "Seven Gates of Hell" can be common here, it is...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: You would not be the first car crash to happen around here in the middle of the night. Umm, you could get hit when you're pulled over, if you're walking around, any of that stuff, and there is also the chance of running into actually not so good people, especially when there's like... I'm not saying a cult is bad, but if people are going there 'cause they want to see some... Something creepy or taboo happen, people could be walking around with, with not so good intentions, uh, people could just be...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Because...
Em Schulz: Partying in the woods or there could be like, truly there could be murderers and rapists out in the woods waiting for like a teenager to just walk outside. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Who the fuck knows? That's what I was gonna say. If they know people are gathering there as kids and don't tell their parents, then, you know? It's a...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Not a lot, not a big jump, not a big leap to, to consider the worst possible scenario.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that is the, uh, "Seven Gates of Hell" for our seventh year of conception, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Wow! Em, you nailed it.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm a little... I feel like I'm still on the Galena train though, like I don't know.
Em Schulz: I did... Maybe it's because I said it immediately to you, but I agree.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Like it sounds interesting. I just, I'm like...
Em Schulz: Galena sounds charming. This is like, this is like Galena's younger brother who like, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Maybe has some friends in jail, and like, [chuckle] you know what I mean? Like it just seems like, [laughter] like the bad, the bad boy little brother, but like Galena is like this polished experienced woman. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And don't get me wrong, like, as Em said, I absolutely would have been involved in this tomfoolery as a child, but, uh, I just, you know, I just don't need to be around teens right now. I'm like, I have a toddler. That's enough. I, if I'm gonna go somewhere, I don't really wanna be surrounded by, uh, by, uh, reckless teens looking for a thrill, you know?
Em Schulz: Hooligans.
Christine Schiefer: Hooligans. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Hooligans. Although while we are here, let's do a redemption moment.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Collinsville, Illinois. I wanna see what the actual town looks like.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, okay, well, while you do that, I'm gonna let [1:04:45.1] ____ Juney in 'cause he threw his body into the wall and scared the shit out of me. Any luck?
Em Schulz: Okay. So Ga-Galena, I, I think it's just because I'm already in love with her, I...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: I don't think Collinsville is Galena, but I will tell you, Collinsville, we really buried the lede, and if I already did fun fact about horseradish, I should have handled this too... [chuckle] It looks like Collinsville has like the world's biggest ketchup bottle? Collinsville...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Of course, they do.
Em Schulz: Collinsville really does feel like they know...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: That they're not Galena, but they have, they have the fun, they bring the fun.
Christine Schiefer: They like don't need to be, you know? They're like, we got our own shit.
Em Schulz: Hang on, let me just...
Christine Schiefer: What is it? Collinsville?
Em Schulz: Collin...
Christine Schiefer: Collins...
Em Schulz: Just, I literally just typed in Collinsville, Illinois and then did Images and the first thing that came up was ketchup bottle.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft!
Em Schulz: Do you see it?
Christine Schiefer: This is hilarious. Yes, I sure do. It's spelled Catsup.
Em Schulz: Catsup. Yeah, Collinsville Catsup.
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: I love it. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is wild. I mean, the city hall is beautiful.
Em Schulz: She's got her own reasons. You know, Collin is about it, Collin's like, I know my big sister Galena is a little more polished than I am, but we have fucking ketchup and horseradish, and ghosts. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I like it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you already got me with the horseradish obviously, and I'm starting to lean back. You know? I'm kind of into it, and also it's on Route 66, and I feel like that... That's something for me, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. She's a good time.
Christine Schiefer: She's a good time. Oh and she's called Historic Collinsville. You know that gets me. You know that gets me. Some bricks...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Some painted brick that says Historic Collinsville, I mean... All right, I'm in. It does, as I've told you when we...
Em Schulz: You know they've got all these...
Christine Schiefer: Discussed this fucking bridge, it doesn't take much to convince me of anything, so, umm...
Em Schulz: I feel like if...
Christine Schiefer: I'll be there.
Em Schulz: You're a place who is really promoting a ketchup situation and a horseradish situation, you know on their main street, they've got a great burger joint. You know they've got a good fucking sandwich place.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: You know they do.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. With horseradish, man, that sounds delightful.
Em Schulz: Thank you. The end.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Good job, Em. Umm, I've got my little demo-demonic entity here. Uh, if you can see him. Can you see him? There he is.
Em Schulz: Oh, there's the sweet little kitty. Oh, as soon as you pointed your camera.
Christine Schiefer: He...
Em Schulz: He did his little... He showed off his claws.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He said, look what I can do, I own you. Umm, and he sure does. Okay. [chuckle] Well, Em, I have something special for you today. Not really. I mean, every day with me is special, I know that, but this is the story of the mysterious death of Natalie Wood.
Em Schulz: Ugh! Okay. I'm glad you're covering it because, homie, you and I watched this on...
Christine Schiefer: Remember how scary that was? [laughter] I...
Em Schulz: That, that was out of sight.
Christine Schiefer: Can't get over it, that we were freaked the fuck out.
Em Schulz: So we, before Christine says anything, I'm going to fully interrupt, I'm going to fully take advantage of the air space, unfortunately, for everybody...
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: But I need to remind everybody that Zak Bagans is a business genius. I don't like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A lot of things about him, but that man knows how to keep a brand moving and during COVID...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: He did a series called Zak Bagans "Quarantine" or whatever. And Natalie Wood was one of the episodes.
Christine Schiefer: It was. And uh, I'll be honest like, I sort of vaguely knew about Natalie Wood's story back when we first watched that, it was when I was visiting LA, uh, at one point, umm, and we were fully ready to just watch this like new installment by Zak Bagans and kind of like, you know, poke fun and laugh and drink and whatever. And we got... She had you and [1:08:39.5] ____ scared. Like we...
Em Schulz: I've never been actually...
Christine Schiefer: We texted Eva, I think like, "Help, we're really afraid." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I had to like slow-clap for Zak Bagans, 'cause I was like, you know what? I wanna hate this man, but you actually got me this time, I'm really just so scared. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The... Yeah. And you know, now that I've done all this research and actually watched like several documentaries just about Natalie Wood's story, I would be interested to go back and watch that episode with that knowledge because...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I don't know, I, uh, I, I mean, I think we can all agree that sometimes, for better or for worse, Zak Bagans kind of leans into the more sensational side of a story, umm, and so I wonder, you know, looking back, like how he presented it and how...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I just wanna see like how it lines up with like, what I've kind of learned the facts of the case are, umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But that, that episode, that one shook me up...
Em Schulz: [1:09:33.6] ____ Copy that.
Christine Schiefer: So if you're looking for something frightening, watch that, but also don't make fun of us if you're not scared, and we were...
Em Schulz: Yes we... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause we were really afraid. People are gonna be like, "What's your problem? It's not that scary." Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: It was only like a four-episode series, too, which was wild, that like how in those...
Christine Schiefer: I know! [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Four episodes did we actually get so fucking rocked compared to everything else he's ever put out.
Christine Schiefer: We were freaked out... You know what? Part of me wonders if like part of the marketing genius was that it was right during, like during the start of COVID, when we really didn't know what was going on. And so it was almost like it had this air of like, the world is shutting down, and I'm trapped in this...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know? He really leaned in... I remember the opening sequence was like, "So far, like 200,000 people across the globe have died," and we were like, oh, and this was like four months in, and we were like, oh, buddy, just get ready. It'd be like so...
Em Schulz: It wasn't even... I remember like... I remember part of the news, saying like, we're only 15 days in right now, and... And I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, like it was something crazy. But he...
Christine Schiefer: The numbers were so small, but they seemed so shocking, so when we watched it a few months later, we were like, oh, buckle up, folks, it's about to get a lot worse than what it was 15 days in.
Em Schulz: Which does make me wonder though, because I'm like, he had... There's no way... Like did it just work out perfectly for him that COVID happened? Because they started filming this thing like two weeks into COVID, like how fast did his production company move? Like to be able to like pitch a whole fucking new show idea? This had to be something before COVID...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And then COVID just happened.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: I don't know. It's very interesting. Yes?
Christine Schiefer: Very suspicious...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Quarantine... When did that even come out? Maybe it... Maybe we're misremembering it. Okay.
Em Schulz: Maybe it was gonna be called something else and then they called it Quarantine and then they like really...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, it came out... The first episode came June 11th of 2020. So it was definitely...
Em Schulz: So it was three months in.
Christine Schiefer: A few months in. Yeah, so at least, I imagine maybe they were starting... Maybe they were considering production on something or starting production, and then like pivoted really hard, I don't know. 'Cause it was all...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: At, on location, so I mean they didn't really have to like travel anywhere. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, welcome to today's installment of we just analyze Zak's business practices for some reason [laughter] and get, and get no answers. So, uh, anyway, let's cover Natalie Wood's mysterious death. Now, Em, real quick, before we start, do you know much about the Natalie Wood story or not really?'Cause I was kind of a newbie to it, to be honest.
Em Schulz: I only know, I only know what Zak Bagans told us. I only know what Zak Bagans told us.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Okay, here we go. Natalie Wood, she was born Natalia Nikolaevna Zakharenko. Okay? I wanted to get that right. Uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she was born of Russian immigrant parents, that was her given birth name, on July 20th, 1938 in San Francisco. When she was 5, the producer and studio executive William Goetz, who would put her in her first film, changed her name, uh, from Natalia to Natalie to kind of Americanize it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then, umm, with the name Zakharenko he said, "I'll make it Wood."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, he changed it to Wood, which was apparently in honor of his friend, a director named Sam Wood... You know, whatever. I have thoughts on that. It was the '40s, you could, I guess, just name people whatever you wanted. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: So, Natalie Wood. Uh, allegedly, this is part, a big part of the story, umm, and actually, I I say allegedly, but quite a few people have confirmed it. A fortune teller told Natalie's mother, Maria, when she was pregnant that she would have a famous daughter, and that same fortune teller was also said to have predicted that daughter would someday die in dark water.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What a fucking terrible psychic, by the way, get some ethics. Like... That's...
Em Schulz: I mean, like what a great psychic, but a little too, to the point. You know?
Christine Schiefer: But like maybe, yeah.
Em Schulz: No bedside manner. Just... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe vagueing it up a little bit. Yeah, no bedside manner, indeed, yeah, that's a good way to put it. So Natalie did indeed achieve fame, umm, and apparently, she actually grew up with a phobia of water because her mom, mm, maybe not the best move, told her about this psychic or this fortune teller and said, "This fortune teller told me that you would die... "
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: "in dark water someday." And so there are several interview clips where Natalie Wood says she's terrified of water. And, umm, so whether this fortune teller said it or not, whether that part was real, umm, she definitely did grow up with a fear of water based on what her mom had told her.
Em Schulz: Which makes it even creepier if like the...
Christine Schiefer: Which is weird, in and of itself. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like... Yeah, it's like, oh, it's like in her gut, then she would have known something is off about water.
Christine Schiefer: There's something that stuck. Exactly. There's like something for her that really stuck. Umm, I had that exact same thought. So Natalie began dancing ballet and acting at a really early age. Her first small film role was at 4 years old, but in 1947, she took on her first major starring role in a movie called "Miracle on 34th Street."
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And of course, we know, that became a huge Christmas classic, umm, and she kind of was vaulted into fame after that. And while filming the 1949 feature, two years later, "The Green Promise," umm, a kind of traumatic incident happened where the bridge that Natalie was running on actually collapsed and she broke her wrist and fell into the water. And this made her even more terrified of water than before, so she's kind of... It's almost like building on itself.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Natalie's career then really took off as a teenager, when she starred alongside James Dean in the 1955 hit "Rebel Without a Cause," and, uh, she actually received, uh, an Academy Award nomination for that role, so now she's becoming...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: An A-lister. And it's interesting to watch people cover this kind of progression of her acting because people have pointed out, it's difficult for a child star, you know, to transition...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Into that like adult or even teenage role of like "Rebel Without a Cause," like love interest, you know? But she really did it...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Very well, umm, and I think that's a testament to how good she really was as an actor. And, uh, in 1961, going off that, she famously starred as Maria in the Hollywood adaptation of "West Side Story," so you've seen that. She's...
Em Schulz: Yeah. She just had fucking big hit after big hit after big hit.
Christine Schiefer: Hit after hit. And she really was like a Hollywood star. You know? Umm, she was a dancer, but she wasn't a singer, so she didn't actually sing in this role. Uh, a Broadway actress named Marni Nixon sang the part for her, umm, but, you know, if you watch it and you know, it's, it hasn't aged well in that, uh, you know, there are White people playing Puerto Rican folks and all that, but, uh, she really did, again, kind of, umm, cement her A-list status, uh, as, as Maria. So, Natalie, herself, outside or off the screen, was charming and adorable in person. People loved her, she was like very easy to follow. You know, she was very easy, like umm tabloid fodder or like Hollywood news fodder, like people just loved following her, her story.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And there was one documentary, it's called "Natalie Wood: What Remains Behind," and they put it this way, generations of people watched her grow up. And I just thought that was so cool because it was like, people saw her as a child actress and then watched her as she became a teenager and was in...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Rebel Without a Cause," and then, you know, she just got, uh, more and more famous, almost like alongside them growing up as well. But of course, you know, Hollywood is not all glitz and glamor. Umm, she was under contract. She was sometimes forced to do projects she didn't wanna do, whether that was like the film companies forcing her to do them or her mother pressuring her to do them, umm, but apparently, she and her younger sister, Lana, were both put under tremendous pressure by their mother, Maria, who was said to be a very, very classic-like big persona like kind of a, umm, what do you call it like when you're...
Em Schulz: Stage mom?
Christine Schiefer: Like a pageant mom? Yeah. Stage mom.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. And so there was a lot of pressure there, and that's why a lot of times, people kind of question some of the stories like about the psychic and the fortune teller. It, it's a little shady because people say they can't necessarily trust, umm, what came from her mother...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But we do know that she was a very, uh, very obsessive, uh, parental figure, when it came to all the, the Hollywood stuff. She was taught from a young age that she could not leave the house unless she looked absolutely perfect. Uh, she was raised...
Em Schulz: Sheesh.
Christine Schiefer: To be very obsessive about her appearance, umm, to the point of destroying her own sister's wedding photos because she didn't like how she looked in them, and she felt...
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: So self-conscious that she just destroyed them. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oooh. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So there's a real deep complex here that had been, had been built. Umm, and just in case you need a cherry on top, Natalie's mom was known to tell the press, "God made Natalie, but I invented her."
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: That gives me goosecam. [chuckle] Ugh.
Em Schulz: "I invented her." Ooh. That...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: That woman's got a, a... She would... Just a psy... A psychiatrist would love to work with her. [chuckle] Or hate to.
Christine Schiefer: I would... I would... Or hate to. Right. [laughter] I was like, "Well... " [laughter] So, in 1955, when Natalie was just 15, her mother dropped her off at a hotel for an important meeting that supposedly was going to make or break her career. Umm, her mom waited outside in the car with Natalie's sister, Lana. And Natalie was ushered into a private suite with Kirk Douglas, umm, who, you know, we all know now, umm, but was back then, also an extremely famous and powerful actor at the time. He was nearly 40 years old. Umm, and it wasn't until they were adults that Natalie told her sister, Lana, uh, what had happened at that hotel. And in her words, Kirk Douglas hurt her.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So that's what we know. Uh, we don't know real details of that, uh, but it sure doesn't sound good.
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: Maria told Natalie, umm, that accusing Kirk Douglas would ruin her career. So... This is her mother talking. So she just had to suck it up. And that was that.
Em Schulz: Oh, lovely. Lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Lovely. Umm, now this one, speaking of getting goosecam and feeling icky all over, uh, later in life, apparently Natalie banned her mom from entering her own home... Her home, Natalie's home, when she overheard her mother on the baby monitor, telling her infant daughter, so like Maria's granddaughter...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Telling her granddaughter that she would make the baby girl a star one day.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And that nobody loved the baby as much as she did.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Oh my God. This is so toxic. Umm...
Em Schulz: Which, like, it's like, it's extra horrible because I, I... You've already listed a few things that like where Natalie was dealing with things, but I'm sure there's...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So much more beneath that, like the tip of the iceberg...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Yeah.
Em Schulz: For her to be like, "You will not touch my child." Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like, that's the final straw.
Em Schulz: Oof. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, that must have been enough to say, "Nope, we're done." Umm, so she kicked her out, said, "Don't come back." And Natalie and Lana, umm, because they were great mothers, uh, became really adamant about protecting their own daughters from...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Maria. They didn't want their children to have the same childhoods they had. Umm, and Natalie was especially strict about this. Uh, she was hugely popular in the press. Uh, her fans were obsessed with her, obsessed with the details of her life, especially her love life. She had actually dated several very high-profile stars, including Elvis Presley of all people.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so, in 1957, she entered her first marriage, and this was with actor Robert Wagner, and she was 18...
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: And just turned 18, and he was eight years older than her. Uh, and so...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Any dicey-ness there aside, because they hadn't known each other for a long time. Uh, they actually divorced five years later because, uh, Natalie caught him having an affair. And the way he puts it now is that... Because he's in a lot of these documentaries, the way he's kind of described it is that he couldn't handle her being more popular, more famous than he was, and you know, she was getting these...
Em Schulz: Oh, so he was an insecure man? What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And, and...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's what he claims today is the reason that their first marriage fell apart.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she was devastated by the divorce. Umm, after her relationship with Warren Beatty, uh, ended because why not? [chuckle] She began seeing another guy who was in the industry. This was Sydney Pollack, who was a married man and the director of a film she was starring in.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: And... Yup. Bad news. So Natalie loved him, but he was unwilling to leave his wife for her. And when he actually ended their affair, she was totally inconsolable and actually attempted suicide in 1966.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, because this had hit her so hard. Umm, thank God, one of her close friends intervened, took her to the hospital, and her life was saved. And at this point, umm, wisely, I think she took a break from acting to focus on therapy and recovery, umm, which seemed to go pretty well. Uh, she seemed to kind of become more secure in herself and, uh, I don't know, pick herself back up from rock bottom. She married writer and producer Greg Richardson in 1969 and had a daughter with him, uh, who... Whom she named Natasha.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then she divorced him in 1972. So they were only together for a couple of years. And then, you better believe the tabloids loved this shit...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: She got back together with her first husband, Robert Wagner, and they said...
Em Schulz: Ugh!
Christine Schiefer: They were always meant to be, and they fell back in love and got married again. And the two of them had another daughter together named Courtney in 1974.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So when Lana asked Natalie about this decision... Just take all this, I guess, with a... I don't know, I don't know the right word, but I'm just gonna say it...
Em Schulz: A rock of salt? A boulder of salt? What?
Christine Schiefer: A boulder of salt? Right. Yes. Uh, so, you know, she said, "Oh, we're in love. We're getting married again." But apparently, when Lana asked Natalie about the decision, Natalie said, "Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't."
Em Schulz: Great. So he was the lesser of all evils. So...
Christine Schiefer: Red flag. The lesser devil, the lesser demon.
Em Schulz: He was the bare minimum shitty man, is what I'm hearing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I suppose... I suppose so. She definitely put it that way, at least. Umm, so Lana later said, "I would've really liked to hear, 'I love him dearly and I can't live without him,' something like that. But to give me a quote about devils, it really didn't sit well."
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah. Totally. It's like, "Well... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "He's fine, compared to the others." And it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It could be worse.
Em Schulz: "Yikes. You could just not be married, girl. It's okay."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It could be worse. Umm, but to be honest, things seemed to go pretty smoothly in their second marriage. I think he really tried harder this time around. Umm, he, he claims he had grown up a lot since their first marriage. And so things seemed pretty smooth. They were raising the girls together. And through the '70s, Natalie continued to enjoy her successful acting career in film and TV. She refused to pull any strings or even arrange introductions for her younger sister, Lana, because she wanted Lana to make it in Hollywood by her own merit, not because she was setting things up for her. And Lana did achieve, uh, a successful acting career, but of course, you know, not quite as tremendously big as Natalie did.
Christine Schiefer: So in 1981, Natalie was wrapping up a sci-fi thriller called "Brainstorm," and she was preparing to kick off rehearsal for a stage production of "Anastasia." And she had joined a new production company. She was excited about exploring new projects that were coming up, umm, new genres she could explore. And Lana remembers 43-year-old Natalie being very happy and just excited about the future at this point in time. And apparently, her daughters were her whole world. So, Lana later wrote, "Natalie had the home and family and children she'd wanted all her life." So, late 1981, Natalie and her husband, Robert Wagner, start planning a routine trip to Catalina Island, which is 22 miles off the coast, uh, from Los Angeles.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. We love Catalina Island.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, you know. We... We're all about Catalina. Uh, I've actually never been, [chuckle] but...
Em Schulz: Oh, you would love it.
Christine Schiefer: I know. My brother went, and that's where he ended up in the hospital. We talk about that a lot on Beach Too Sandy 'cause he only ate Oreos and beef jerky for three days on a hiking trip, and got heat stroke. So, uh, you know...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Allison and I had a great time. Uh, no heat stroke over here.
Christine Schiefer: It has... Uh, it has it all.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but, uh, that is something that they did all the time. They took a boat out to Catalina, and they had a boat who, uh... Boat and a boat captain who drove the boat? I need to... I need to look at my boat lingo. Umm...
Em Schulz: Captain the boat?
Christine Schiefer: Ca... See, but the thing is, they said he wasn't even a captain. I don't know the right word. I'll get to it. I'm sure it's in my bullet points.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So they did their usual, they took a routine trip to Catalina Island, which is, like we said, very close to LA. It's a popular like long weekend spot, I would say, for people in Los Angeles. Umm, and they invited along several friends and a few declined because they'd heard like the weather was gonna be a little bit rough, making the water a bit rough, and she really wanted someone else to join them. So, in the end, they did manage to get, uh, one of her friends to join. And this friend was her co-star in "Brainstorm," and his name was Christopher Walken.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So, yeah, Christopher Walken joined them on their boat ride. So, the three of them set off, uh, it was Robert, Christopher, and Dennis Davern. He was the yacht's, uh...
Em Schulz: Pseudo captain? Something captain?
Christine Schiefer: Pseudo captain. Let's say captain. You know what? I don't know. That's what most people say. Technically, he's the skipper, I guess. Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But he was the one who managed the boat. He took care of the boat. He worked on it when the boat went out. Umm, he's not technically the captain, but that's kind of how he gets portrayed. He's...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Driving them along. And he's responsible for the boat, which by the way is called The Splendour. And which probably, I shouldn't be saying is a boat 'cause it's a yacht. And I'm sure that that's something I would get in big trouble for.
Em Schulz: Sure. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: It's a yacht. It's called The Splendour, with a U, Splendour.
Em Schulz: Okay. Splendour.
Christine Schiefer: And... Splendour. November 28th was the day they took off. Umm, they moored The Splendour just off shore and used a dinghy to go ashore for dinner at Doug's Harbor Reef. And in case you're unfamiliar, a dinghy is basically a little boat, umm, that goes on your big boat and then you can hop on the little boat to get to shore instead of like bringing the entire yacht with you. You know? So they went out to dinner, and apparently they drank so much wine that night, that the restaurant manager was actually worried about them navigating the dinghy through the water back to their boat.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so that's just to give you an idea of how drunk they were. And when they left at 10:30, the manager of the restaurant actually sent a member of the Harbor Patrol with them to make sure they made it back to The Splendour safely. And with that escort, uh, they did, they made it back to The Splendour. But after that, as you can imagine, the story gets complicated because there are...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Different versions, different theories, umm, about what really happened. But just after 11:00 PM, the three men, this is their official story, realized Natalie was missing. And they also realized the dinghy was missing. That was at 11:00 PM. At 1:30 AM, Robert made a ship-to-shore call to ask that people look around for Natalie in town in case she had gone back to town.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Two hours later at 3:30 AM, Robert was finally convinced by others to reluctantly call the Coast Guard to report his wife missing. And this was four and a half hours after they had first noticed that she wasn't there anymore. The following morning...
Em Schulz: And this is... Sorry, sorry, sorry. So, as of 11:00, they noticed she was missing, but the Harbor Patrol guy did see her with them?
Christine Schiefer: So the Harbor Patrol guy saw them leave at 10:30 from the restaurant, and...
Em Schulz: And it was all four of them at the time?
Christine Schiefer: Saw them, all four of them... Saw all four of them arrive... Or I'm sorry, the three of them arrive back on the boat and, umm, Dennis was on the boat.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. So...
Christine Schiefer: Like he's just, he's just an employee basically.
Em Schulz: Sure. But the... So Harbor Patrol guy did see her at 10:30 with them?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. They made it safely to the boat. They left...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The restaurant at 10:30. He escorted them safely all back to the boat.
Em Schulz: So there's a half-hour window where all of a sudden, she went missing and we don't know what happened in between then?
Christine Schiefer: Allegedly, yes. Precisely.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the story is, right, they get back safely to the boat. "Thank you for, [chuckle] uh, bringing us safely here, escorting us. We're all good now. Bye." Uh, that's around 10:30-ish. And then around 11:00, allegedly the three men realized Natalie is nowhere to be seen.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so it's not till 3:30 AM that Robert finally calls the Coast Guard to report his wife missing. Then at 8:00 AM, tragically searchers found Natalie floating, having drowned in the water that, last night, roughly a mile from the yacht in a cove called Blue Cavern Point. And pretty quickly police ruled Natalie's death an accidental drowning. Umm, Robert told police Natalie must have taken the dinghy out to go party-hopping on other nearby yachts. Uh, and when they did an autopsy, it revealed she did have a blood alcohol content of 0.14. And so...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: With that alcohol, uh, impairing her coordination, Robert and investigators assumed she had just fallen off the dinghy at some point, while trying to get to another boat. But everybody else who knew her was a little confused because first of all, Natalie was discovered only in her nightgown and a coat. Uh...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And her sister Lana said that makes no sense. Like she wouldn't even go get the mail without putting make-up...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And her hair together, and putting on a nice outfit. Like, you know, as we said, her mother put a lot of very intense, umm, obsessions in her, including her, her outward image. And so, it just didn't make sense to people who knew her that she would go party-hopping in her pajamas, basically.
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it just didn't strike them as, as likely. It was also inconceivable that, uh, she would go out into the water alone in the dark, on a choppy night.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, it, it, it just felt so unlike her, uh, especially because with her fear of water, she had never learned to swim.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, it just seemed very strange with this fear of water, fear of drowning, which she had talked about on live TV... Uh, she got in the dinghy and went off without telling anyone...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: In her pajamas. It just struck family and friends as a little bit odd. Years later, Dennis, uh, the skipper of the boat, recalled that when the news broke that Natalie was found dead, Robert was "very serious about having the stories be the same." He apparently told the three men aboard, so that was himself, uh, Dennis, and Christopher Walken, told them to have a timeline together before they talked to the police leading up to...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Natalie's death before they were questioned. So, Robert and Christopher Walken then left in a police helicopter leaving Dennis to officially identify Natalie's body, because Robert said he didn't wanna do it. So...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That seems like the definition of above my pay grade. Right?
Em Schulz: Totally.
Christine Schiefer: Like he's your yacht skipper, and you're like, "Anyway, go identify my wife's dead body while we go in the helicopter back to shore." [chuckle] It's just so outrageous to me.
Em Schulz: And also wasn't Christopher Walken like, Christopher Walken didn't know them that well, right? Didn't he like just meet her on a, on a movie set or something?
Christine Schiefer: So they were starring together on this film and they had been really good friends.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And there's a lot of speculation because people said... People were speculating whether they were having an affair, like before all this happened. Umm, and there's a lot of speculation about Robert being jealous of her friendship with Christopher Walken.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: And they were, you know, like co-stars and they had that kind of, umm, chemistry. And so, they were... Uh, she and Christopher Walken were much friendlier than Robert and Christopher Walken, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they left in this police helicopter. Poor Dennis had to identify Natalie's body. Uh, and following Robert's order, Dennis told the police, he figured Natalie must have left on the dinghy by herself. It wasn't until years later that he came forward and said, "There's a major problem with that story."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He said if Natalie wanted to go to a party, she no doubt would've asked him, Dennis, to take her in the dinghy, not to go... She would not go by herself. He was like, "She would've asked me to take her." It's...
Em Schulz: Right. He was also literally hired to do that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. That was his job. And he's not drunk, right? Like they're, they're all out partying, drinking, he's just their employee. He's...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm trying to...
Christine Schiefer: Moving the boat. Driving the boat.
Em Schulz: I'm trying to imagine a world where like she was so drunk, she was like, "I can... I can do it." Or like, "Maybe I need to face my fears and I don't know what I'm so scared... " Like I'm trying to think of a... But then also her pajamas and everything. Is there a way that the dinghy just like got...
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying...
Em Schulz: Loose and like that's a separate thing from her just like falling off the boat?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So there are theories about that. Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So you're, you're definitely on to one of the theories with that, so I will, I will get there. Umm, but like you said, this was Dennis's job. So he says, you know, "If they're claiming, oh, she went to go party-hopping, like that doesn't make sense. She wouldn't have done that by herself." She didn't even know, according to Dennis, how to operate the dinghy. And so she couldn't have taken it herself. It just didn't...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Make sense. And indeed, the dinghy was discovered washed ashore on some rocks, with the key in the ignition, but the key had never been turned. So, she had never even started...
Em Schulz: Looks like a setup.
Christine Schiefer: The dinghy. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely. The, the engine had never been started. The oars were fixed in place as well, meaning the dinghy wasn't even manually rode by anybody. It had just been kind of let go.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But with all three men having told investigators the same story, you know, they just kind of went with it. Uh, however, looking back, Natalie did have bruises on her body and a cut on her cheek, but it was kind of overlooked as like, that must have happened when she fell overboard, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: They did also find a broken bottle of wine in the yacht, but Robert said it had fallen and shattered in some rough sailing conditions, and that was his explanation. Two weeks after Natalie died, they closed the case and that was that. But Lana, her sister, was really, really struggling with this, uh, kind of just open-and-shut case...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, angle on her sister's death. And after Natalie died, Robert just completely cut Lana out of his life, like just totally cold c... Cold-shouldered ghosted her. Lana continually asked Robert, uh, despite him, you know, closing the door on that, their relationship, as in-laws, uh, continually asked him to explain what happened to Natalie that night and how... What happened when she died, what happened before, what, what was the situation? She just wanted more clarity and she really didn't have any details and was obviously traumatized by this. So she's asking just, "I wanna know the events leading up to it." Umm, and she thought maybe having more information would help her grieve and understand this and heal from it. But Robert basically told her, "I'm not talking about it and don't speak to me."
Em Schulz: Huh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Totally cut her off. So he criticized Lana for selling some of Natalie's estate, like her valuable clothes. And that's something that Lana has been kind of crit... Criticized for. But Lana, who was divorced and really hadn't quite hit big time Hollywood status as Natalie had, uh, said she was just trying to support her daughter. There was a little bit of that back and forth. And then Robert made her sign legal documents giving up any other claim to her sister's estate, and she was forced to sign those papers. And then he immediately stopped speaking to her altogether. He invited Lana's mother, Maria, who was still alive and even Lana's daughter over for dinner all the time, regularly, but Lana was not welcome. So...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Strangely, you know? Uh, Lana continued to try to find more work behind the scenes in Hollywood, but like, she just wasn't... I don't know... She wasn't the star that her sister was. And so, she struggled to kind of find those same type of opportunities. One day, she was allegedly contacted by a trusted source and told she would never find work there again because Robert Wagner had blacklisted her.
Em Schulz: Gasp. He's so fucking guilty. I don't know what's going on. [chuckle] I... I... Something so fishy is happening right now.
Christine Schiefer: Something is so fishy on some side, and it's like, it's hard because you watch one documentary that features Robert Wagner and Natalie's kids, and they're like, "Yo, Lana's crazy. She just wants... Like, she's like her, her mother, she just wants like all this drama and she wants to create this storyline about herself, and that's why we cut her out." And you're like, okay, I can see why you would not want that in your life. And then you flip it and watch a different documentary with like police investigators who are like, "This is not... Like something's wrong... "
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "With this picture of the way this investigation was handled." So, you really do see conflicting sides. Umm, it's, it's... Something's fishy. You're... I mean, you're absolutely right. Something's up. Umm...
Em Schulz: One of them knows something. That's all I gotta say.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody knows in... Indeed. I absolutely agree. So, apparently, Lana struggled to understand why he was so hostile toward her and wished he would just like meet with her once to, to get this on the table and, and figure it out once and for all and discuss her sister's death. But meanwhile, Robert insisted that Dennis, the skipper of the boat... The yacht, excuse me, move into his guest house in Beverly Hills. So he like basically pressured this employee, who was there the night Natalie died, into moving onto his own property into the guest house. And...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently, when he did do this, uh, Robert insisted that Dennis remain indoors at all times and communicate with no one.
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: And that's according to Dennis's take on how this all went.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, Dennis said he moved in thinking like, "Okay, well, he wants me to live closer, maybe, I don't know, be more involved with his day-to-day life." But he said once he moved in, he felt like a prisoner, and he said he just had to get out of there. So he eventually made a getaway to the East Coast. He said he had to flee basically, as far as he could to get away from Robert. And, uh, apparently, he really struggled at this point, umm, and kind of had to come to terms with everything that had happened. And it wasn't until the '90s that he started drunkenly calling Lana to tell her that her sister Natalie's death was not an accident.
Em Schulz: Gasp. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, gasp, but also, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So, this is where obviously the paths diverge, right? Because on the one hand, you've got Dennis and Lana who are making very big claims, who are writing books about this, who are getting paid for these books and getting press. And of course, you've got the family saying like, "Look, they're just like money-hungry. They're just trying to profit off our mother's death and yada yada." And then you've got the other side, which is like, well, maybe the guilt was eating at them, or maybe, maybe this really is how it happened and they're trying to get her story out there. So there's a lot of conflict here. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, so many question marks.
Christine Schiefer: So many questions marks. And...
Em Schulz: There's someone, there's someone with like the red string all over their walls. Like there's...
Christine Schiefer: Totally, I think there's probably a lot of people who do. [chuckle] And you know what? I realized, remember? In that episode of, umm, "Quarantine," the Zak Bagans Show, the guy on the Zoom call was Dennis.
Em Schulz: Oh, that was Dennis? Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: That was Dennis. Yeah, I remember him 'cause I was like, why is that guy is so familiar? And I was like, oh right, he scared me a lot in that one episode of Zak Bagans. Umm...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was distraught, he was like just sobbing.
Christine Schiefer: He was upset. He was really, really upset.
Em Schulz: 'Cause like even... 'Cause even though... So Dennis was technically like the skipper of the boat, but it sounded like they were like best friends, it sounded like he...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they've been very close.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So that...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That goes to the point of like, she would have asked him to drive her to a party or something. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly. And he knew her very well, so like he knew, like Natalie wouldn't have gotten on the dinghy by herself. She didn't even know how to drive it. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like he knew those kind of things, and like you said, they had a relationship that he'd been working for this family for years, and they've done this trip to Catalina so many times that...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He just knew well enough. So basically, the situation now is like either he's lying, like just blatantly lying...
Em Schulz: He didn't look like he was lying on "Quarantine."
Christine Schiefer: Well, certainly not, and, and that's, you know, where you get into the he-said, she-said. Either he's lying or he really believes that's what happened. Umm, and so, you know, [chuckle] the question marks remain, but I, I'll tell you, I lean one way, but we'll get there.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so after nearly two decades of refusing to speak about his wife's death, Robert finally said he would open up and talk about his wife's death. He was interviewed and he told the story, but interestingly, his story was different this time. Huh.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird.
Em Schulz: Convenient.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: This time, he said Natalie didn't take the dinghy out. Instead, she was below deck going to bed, and because the dinghy was loosely tied, it was banging against the side of the boat, and to... For what it's worth, this was something apparently that had driven her crazy in the past, like when the dinghy would clink against the side of the boat, and she was trying to sleep down there.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he said, his theory is that she went out, just grabbed a coat, went out to go re-tie the dinghy so it would stop banging, uh, and fell in, and that was his new theory.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. That makes more sense. That's a...
Christine Schiefer: So... It makes some sense.
Em Schulz: It's a good lie. It's a good like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If it's a lie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, if it's a lie, then, it's, it, it's a sensible one, I think. Especially if it was something that really bothered her. Umm, in 2011, now, this is 30 years after Natalie's death. Investigators reopened the case.
Em Schulz: Mm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Because some new information had come to light, so Lieutenant John...
Em Schulz: Gasp. Was it from Zak Bagans? What was it?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: In 2011? No, I don't think so. Umm, Lieutenant John Corina of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department basically says Robert's story makes no fucking sense, is essentially...
Em Schulz: I like him, I like this guy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, the Cliff Notes of it. Yeah. He said "The reality is, that's not her job. She would never go worry about the dinghy. She's gonna tell Dennis Davern, 'Hey, can you go tie that dinghy down, it's making noise,' that's his job." Which is like, again, the same kind of thing about like with, with driving her somewhere to a party.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like that is not something that she ever would have done on her own, and so he's like, she would have just said, even if she was like really pissed, she would have said, "Dennis, retie that thing."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "It's fucking making noise," whatever. You know? And so it just didn't make sense to to, uh, the lieutenant. Investigators also called into question the bruises that had been found on at Natalie's body, which actually, [chuckle] now that they thought about it, didn't seem very consistent with falling off a boat.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Detective Ralph Hernandez said, I think I've been a cop long enough to see that those appear to be assaultive in nature.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. So now we get back to Dennis, the skipper. He's kind of like the crux of all this, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Dennis, according to him, the night before Natalie's death, she and Robert, her husband, got into a heated argument. She was so upset, she had Dennis take her to shore where she stayed the night in a hotel. But Dennis is considered a problematic witness because uh when he finally changed his story years after the incident... Incident, like I told you, he sold it to tabloids and he wrote a tell-all book, so people were like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just hard to use him as like an impartial witness, when he's made so, made like such a living off of it.
Em Schulz: He's not impartial anymore. He's like definitely...
Christine Schiefer: He's not impartial.
Em Schulz: Inserted himself into the opinions.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And so whether it's true or not, it's like it's just hard to rely on that, uh, as fact.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Dennis, for what it's worth, insisted that he came forward, umm, not just, not for money at all, but just for his own conscience and because he felt like he needed to say something. Umm, but what we do know is Natalie did call a friend from a shore that night and asked them to come to Catalina to get her and take her back to the mainland. So this is the night before she died. So a friend basically said, "Oh, she called me and said, 'I wanna come home. I had a, I had an argument with Robert and I left the yacht.'" And so we do know from another separate witness, a friend of Natalie's, that she did, in fact, get into an argument and leave the yacht and go to a hotel because she called her friend.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But even though she wanted to go home, uh, the rain and the choppy seas prevented Natalie from getting there. So in the morning after cooling down, she decided, you know what? I'm gonna go back to The Splendour, I'm gonna try to enjoy the rest of my trip and get over this argument we had. But apparently that night, when the three of them returned to the boat after dinner at 10:30 when, when the, umm, what was he called? The harbor guy...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Helped get them to the boat, when they returned, Dennis claimed that Robert angrily smashed a bottle of wine on the counter after walking in and seeing Christopher Walken and Natalie kind of just like laughing and, and kind of leaning to each other, just not, you know, almost flirtatious-ly, not kissing or anything, but just being very...
Em Schulz: Or like a jealous man would read it the wrong way.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Like it...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It just read as they're having such a good time together, they clicked so well, clearly, this was just pouring, you know, gasoline on the fire...
Em Schulz: Which makes sense because if their, if their first divorce is because he was insecure...
Christine Schiefer: He was insecure.
Em Schulz: And he's only, she's only gotten more powerful and like famous since then.
Christine Schiefer: And more, and more self-assured, and you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so at this point, according to Dennis, he walks in, he's immediately enraged, he smashes the wine bottle, and he shouts at Christopher Walken, "What are you trying to do? Fuck my wife?"
Em Schulz: Whoa!
Christine Schiefer: And that is the story Dennis tells. Uh, apparently, at this point, Natalie was fed up, she went off to bed and said, "This... I'm out of here," went to bed. Apparently Christopher Walken went to his room. Robert followed Natalie, trying to like keep the argument going, shouting, throwing stuff, making a whole racket, and Dennis said he went to try to intervene in the argument, but Robert like freaked out at him now and and Dennis said he was so upset and enraged, that Dennis was afraid for his own safety and was like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You know what? I'm out of here. Like [chuckle] above my pay grade once again.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so he's like, I'm out of here, this is a clearly a marital thing that I'm not getting involved in, but he claimed he could still hear all the commotion. So he said the argument continued outside to the back of the boat, and then there was sudden and complete silence.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So that is Dennis's story. And in 2018, uh, a 48-hour special came out and in this special, investigators said two new witnesses had actually come forward to corroborate Dennis's story. These witnesses claimed they heard an argument outside, recognized the voices of Robert and Natalie and said the argument just suddenly ended in silence. So soon afterward, Dennis found Robert crying. And Dennis was like, "What's going on? Is everything okay? Where's Natalie?" And Robert said, "Natalie is missing."
Em Schulz: Okay. Perfect.
Christine Schiefer: But like I told, like I said... Perfect. So like I said, in the early timeline, Robert refused to let Dennis turn on the floodlights to look for her in the water...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like he, he's like, "Let's find her," and he's like, "No, don't turn on the floodlights, don't call anyone." And so it, he, he...
Em Schulz: He wanted...
Christine Schiefer: Forced them to wait hours, four and a half hours, before they called the Coast Guard.
Em Schulz: That man is a prime suspect number one to me, I'll tell you that.
Christine Schiefer: I'll be honest I don't feel good about it. I'll tell you that much. Even after watching...
Em Schulz: It sounds like he threw her overboard and didn't want any lights 'cause he didn't want anyone to find her struggling, so he'd have time for her to drown. That's what it sounds like to me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or... Yeah, something like that, or he knew what he'd done and he was just like trying to hold off as long as he could...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: Something... Something not legal or good or nice.
Christine Schiefer: The thing is like she didn't know how to swim, so it wouldn't even have been a long wait, you know? It's not like she could have been treading water or anything...
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: And shouting, you know, which is also so upsetting to think about. Umm, but yeah. So he had them wait, which is factual. We know that the story that Robert tells is that she went missing at 11:00 and they didn't call the Coast Guard until 3:30. So we do know that's true. Um, but Lana now believes Robert is responsible for Natalie's death, and she openly accuses him of foul play, but again, Natalie's own daughters, umm, are very close with their dads... They have separate fathers, but they're both very close with both of their dads and, uh, claim that this was all just an accident. So, it's hard because you see these two girls who like lost their mother and they're like, "No, my... Of course, my dad didn't do that." You know? And so you want to believe them and you want them to be right, but it's so hard to wrap your head around this.
Em Schulz: I can't think of a way where it's not... You know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't, I mean, I am... I'm not an expert, but I do have gut feelings and I do have.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I have some wherewithal, it, it doesn't seem like...
Christine Schiefer: I've some wherewithal.
Em Schulz: It doesn't seem like there's a lot of options here on what could have happened.
Christine Schiefer: It's just a little too shady. Umm...
Em Schulz: Some people seem a little more damning than others. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I would absolutely agree. Umm, so, Robert, who's now 93 years old uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Continues to maintain his innocence in the HBO documentary, "Natalie Wood: What Remains Behind," which came out in 2020, Robert sat with Natalie's first daughter, Natasha and discussed the night Natalie died in more detail. And Natasha said she personally remembered that the dinghy did often irritate her mother, and she had frequently asked Robert to go move it so it would stop...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Banging on the hull. So in some sense, I guess if they're in an argument and she hears it and she's annoyed, she's like, fine, I'll do it myself, you know, I guess I could see that...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Being the situation. But she asked in the documentary, so this is now, uh, his daughter or, or I guess his daughter, his first... His stepdaughter. Let's put it that way...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: His stepdaughter, but she said she calls them both, she calls him like Daddy Wagner, so she calls them by... She calls them both "Dad."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that's how close they are. But she asked him how it feels to be considered a person of interest in the reopened investigation.
Em Schulz: I like how she's one of the only people who can probably ask him that directly...
Christine Schiefer: Right? You know, without like any...
Em Schulz: What's like to know you might be a murderer? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, Dad, isn't that weird? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he told her, he doesn't pay any attention because the media uh and the investigation cannot redefine or change who he is or the truth. Uh and Natasha said, "But it's important to me, Daddy, that people think of you the way that I know you are."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she says, in the documentary, she knows Robert would have given his life for, for Natalie, for her mother, and that she doesn't want anyone to think otherwise. Now, Natasha's younger sister, Courtney, said of the accusations, "It was so transparent that certain people exploited my family like this and it makes me very protective of my father. I love him so deeply, and it has gone on for so long that I still can't believe they actually write such untrue things." So, they've really split from their Aunt Lana, umm, obviously...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And today, Lana remains very vocal and convinced that Robert was somehow involved in her sister's death, but the rest of the family just wishes she would stop accusing him, let them move on once and for all and leave this in the past. But of course, you know, people don't like to let stories like this die, so tabloids continued to run stories accusing Robert. Umm but basically, it's a he-said, she-said, you know, Dennis, Robert, and Lana have their... Each have their own stories of what happened, none of them can be fully proven or disproven, and as of May 2022, so, umm, a year, almost two years, uh, since recording this episode, Robert Wagner was finally officially cleared of involvement in Natalie's death by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. Umm, that being said, the case remains open and unsolved, and investigators do still welcome any new information, umm, any witnesses who have yet to come forward to help clarify events, uh, that might lead to answers as to what happened to Natalie that night in 1981. And that is...
Em Schulz: The hell happened with... What's Christopher Walken's opinion of this?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so he's actually been asked repeatedly and he has never... He said, "I don't speak about that."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there is, there...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: There were a few clips I saw where he's been asked, they say, you know, we have to ask. And he says, "I understand, I'm not going to speak on that."
Em Schulz: Either he knows nothing or he definitely knows something and he's scared.
Christine Schiefer: Or he knows everything. Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that crazy? Like...
Em Schulz: That feels like, I mean, I don't... Maybe there's a world where Robert Wagner didn't do anything, but it feels like he's been threatened into silence. It, that...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like either he... My, my take is almost not even threatened, 'cause I feel like Christopher Walken will be like, fuck you and your threats. My take is that he doesn't necessarily know because he was like, "I'm out of here, they're having a marital spat, I'm going to bed... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But maybe he has an idea or maybe he...
Em Schulz: He's like, I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut because... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like maybe he doesn't have any hard facts, but he has like an inkling, you know, is the vibe I get, but again, I don't... This is all conjecture. I have no idea. I mean, my hope would be maybe someday on like Christopher Walken's deathbed or something, he like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or or writes tell-all right before... You know what I mean? Like maybe we'll find a journal... I don't know. I, I, I wish there were more answers, but it is so shady, so fishy and like just really tragic. I mean, overall, just really fucking sad. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. And, man, well, I guess Dennis is still around and kicking and talking about, uh, I mean he didn't seem like he was, umm I guess he didn't tell an actual side of the story on the Zak Bagans show, but he was very emotional about it, it still really clearly fucks him up.
Christine Schiefer: He was. And remember something weird happened, uh, like something very jarring happened that scared the absolute shit out of us, that I can't remember.
Em Schulz: Something happened... I think he was talking... Like he still talks to Natalie or something, and like, like talks to her ghost and then at the exact same time, something happened at the house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, something really weird happened. I remember you and I both jumped like out of our skin. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I think like their call dropped or something. It was just very weird, umm but again, like I'm gonna re-watch it now that I kinda know more about the story and know who he is...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I want to, too. Especially 'cause now, I remember any time we've gone to the museum, too, we've seen the Natalie Wood room, where like the wine bottle and everything is at Zak's museum.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes, true. Yeah, so this sheds so much more...
Em Schulz: I wonder if Dennis donated like the whole fucking yacht to him or something.
Christine Schiefer: Well, it wasn't his, so I don't know. It would have been...
Em Schulz: What happen... Uh what happens when a... Like does a boat... When like a notorious person or like a famous person ends up like dying in a bombshell story, like does that boat still get used? I know this is such a random question, but I'm like, I feel like that should have been memorialized somewhere...
Christine Schiefer: I mean my guess would be that it's probably owned by Robert Wagner. He probably sold it to somebody.
Em Schulz: Yeah, didn't want anything to do with it.
Christine Schiefer: Highest bidder. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Was the highest bidder Zachary Alexander Bagans?
Christine Schiefer: I mean like genuinely maybe, [laughter] like, how old was he? Like 4, when this happened? No.
Em Schulz: I don't know... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah, I don't know, I don't know. That's a good question. I've no clue.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Well, good story, I mean good telling of a bad story.
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you. I-it's, it's pretty dark, but, umm... Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it does give us a reason to go watch that show again, 'cause I don't think...
Christine Schiefer: It sure does.
Em Schulz: We've ever even finished the four episodes, I think those...
Christine Schiefer: We didn't!
Em Schulz: I think we got so scared that we never even finished it. Oh which also...
Christine Schiefer: We're so babies.
Em Schulz: One of the episodes we did watch though, I think was about Kevorkian, if, if I'm putting in story requests.
Christine Schiefer: Oof... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: His fucking museum... I don't know about it, man. I'm...
Em Schulz: I know I like it, but I know I'm scared at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like it. I think it makes me feel bad and weird. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I appreciate that he's collecting things that other people don't know what to do with anymore, and he's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'll take it, and it's like a real mixed bag of all the weird shit that nobody else really wants, and he's like, I'll be the goodwill, give it to me. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I don't like that he does, like he puts on display, you know, paintings by uh Charles Manson, and, and, you know, I don't, I don't love all that, I don't love the room of serial killers, where he has like all their art work, and...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, what's the room that we went to on your bachelorette party, which was such a fucking bummer? With like...
Christine Schiefer: The one that I can't... The one that I felt physically ill, like just truly... I can't even really think about it 'cause...
Em Schulz: It was the mattress?
Christine Schiefer: It makes my skin crawl. Yeah, it's that...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Room where there's a mattress and this... Many men had been tortured on this mattress and I'm...
Em Schulz: Yeah, and it's still like stained with like... Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: It's still stained with like all sorts of fluids and stuff...
Em Schulz: I... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I thought that was totally distasteful. I was like...
Em Schulz: I don't know how that's not... Well, it's gone now.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think we should be all staring at that.
Em Schulz: So, I think enough people complained...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, is it?
Em Schulz: It's like that has not...
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: The last like two or three times I've gone, it was not there.
Christine Schiefer: I did not find that to be it... I was like that's too far. Sorry, folks. Like I'm not...
Em Schulz: Which I don't know how that does not just like get burned or like left in like a, like an uh like an evidence archives facility like that... That was a lot. I thought we were going...
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible.
Em Schulz: And it was just gonna be like, we'll go see his mirror...
Christine Schiefer: Creepy dolls.
Em Schulz: Creepy dolls.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And that part I think is great and fun and like spooky, but the thing with the like...
Em Schulz: The serial killer stuff, I cannot get behind.
Christine Schiefer: The actual deaths and like this, like let's all stare at it, and it just feels like very distasteful to me.
Em Schulz: Well, what was extra... What was extra terrible, that one, that one room, I remember being like, I, this was a bad call. This was a bad call...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I, I backed out of there. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: But they also had, not only are you looking at a mattress... I mean, like if there wasn't glass, it's it's still set on a cot, so like if the glass...
Christine Schiefer: Like a couple of feet away.
Em Schulz: If the glass wasn't in between the two of you, you could have just sat down on it like any other bed, it was like right fucking there.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And the thing that made it incredibly awful is that whoever was responsible for torturing people on that bed had audio recorded and they were playing the audio. It was so, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah... They were playing the audio. It's like, what are you thinking?
Em Schulz: Yeah. That was like beyond...
Christine Schiefer: I, I was very...
Em Schulz: I never... Like that was, that was so tone deaf and so not tasteful, so not, not okay.
Christine Schiefer: I was just really troubled by that. Yeah, agreed, agreed. Umm, so yeah, I mean you know what, all with a boulder of salt, as we say...
Em Schulz: Boulder of salt. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Enjoy at your own risk, I suppose.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Although I will say that room is not there anymore, so I think enough people were like, that is so beyond fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah, you did say that. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, no, the ghosts... The, all the the things that he's inherited that were ghost things, I'm, I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I'm glad somebody's taking it in, and then I found out...
Christine Schiefer: That's fine.
Em Schulz: From, umm, one of the employees there, 'cause I was like, oh, it seems like since last time I was here, like things have moved like where are...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Where's this pile of dolls, and where's this and this? Apparently, this museum... This is what I think they should do. I'm not like the business guru like, uh, like Zak is, but apparently, that house is only ever holding like a 60th of the shit that they own at one time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. So it's like a, like exhibits are moving in and out of it, like a rotating basis.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Apparently, Zak has like... Not only did he buy this museum, he also bought an entire, not like a storage... Like he bought the whole facility.
Christine Schiefer: He bought the whole facility. Oh my God. Shut up!
Em Schulz: That's what it sounds like, he's just got like, like ceiling-to-floor stacks and stacks and stacks of all haunted things.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine... I mean, God forbid, but imagine that man dies tomorrow and someone has to go like through his estate...
Em Schulz: [laughter] I know.
Christine Schiefer: Woah!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know who you'll make fucking do it, Aaron, [laughter] by himself.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's so right. The the guy would read, the lawyer would reach out, and be like, hey, you know, you-you're on the list, you're his executor," and Aaron would be like so touched and he'd be like, now figure out what to do with all the shit by end of week. And it would be...
Em Schulz: And also, Zak stopped paying the uh the electric bills, so it's pitch black in the storage facility, so get, get crawling.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah. Get... And he also, uh, he also maintained from beyond the grave that you must video record the entire thing, and...
Em Schulz: But also, I, honestly, Christine, I guarantee in his will, the final Ghost Adventures production would be Zak as a ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Oh for sure. For sure. No doubt.
Em Schulz: It would be go ghost-hunting in Zak's own home, looking for Zak.
Christine Schiefer: Like he's planning that already.
Em Schulz: And that would be, fade to black, that is the final... I guarantee it. [laughter] Like mark my words...
Christine Schiefer: The final act.
Em Schulz: When he... One day...
Christine Schiefer: I don't doubt it.
Em Schulz: When he goes, this will exist... I know it's already written down somewhere. It's like umm [laughter] it's like Dolly Parton, like how she has... Did you hear about the song which she wrote?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: She has a song that she's already created, and she's already said it's like her favorite song...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And so she's so bummed out, like she'll never get to hear what people think of it, but it will, uh, it's only gonna get released after she's died.
Christine Schiefer: Dude, I am not patient enough to be that way.
Em Schulz: And she's like, it's such a bummer, I won't hear people respond to it because it's my favorite.
Christine Schiefer: Dude... [laughter] Good for her for being so like restrained, but I don't know how people do that. Wow!
Em Schulz: Anyway, that will be the, like there's gonna be two series, one's gonna be Aaron going through all of Zak's shit and then the final episode will be looking for Zak and that'll be it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Looking for Zak. Oh God, it's so tragic, but so true. And we all know it.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Anyway, okay. All that to say those, the, the "Seven Gates of Hell" and Natalie Wood, those are the reasons why we drink this week.
Christine Schiefer: Oy, indeed. Indeed.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I'm, I'm very excited to, umm, be getting so much, uh, time with you, Christine 'cause I've been... I saw you with my face and I'm seeing you with my screen, and then like in a few days, I'm gonna see you again with my face. It's gonna be very fun.
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait, I can't wait, I can't wait.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
