[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hey. Welcome to episode, oh shit, 347. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Welcome to Wine & Crime, oh shit, And That's Why We Drink. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, finally people can see our real secret.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We're just a Wine & Crime knockoff podcast.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh well.
Christine Schiefer: We did start the same week as them, which was wild. We... I remember being like, "What the heck? We have the... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Same setup about wine.
Em Schulz: I do remember, Umm... For a while we were like, "Are they gonna be our rivals?" And then it ends up turning...
Christine Schiefer: We thought like they were gonna despise us.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: Worked out differently.
Christine Schiefer: Very yeah. And then you went shopping with them. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was prepared for... I was prepared for a villain era or something, but it turns out that they're...
Christine Schiefer: Man.
Em Schulz: Lovely people just like us so.
Christine Schiefer: I would love a villain era. Like, somebody be our villain.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's a dangerous thing to ask the world for, the universe for.
Em Schulz: It depends on who it is. I'm down depending on who it is. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I just love that I said to the universe, "Give me an enemy." Like why... What is wrong with me? [laughter] I don't... That's not what I need right now.
Em Schulz: It's like life's too easy. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. You know how easy life is.
Em Schulz: The irony is... The plot twist at the end of the movie is that you find out you're your own worst enemy. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what a plot twist. Indeed. Umm, so relatable. So, uh, oh. Sorry. Before I forget, I wrote this in my notes. This is Berit, my moth, umm, Squishmallow that I meant to tell you about. Umm, I just wanted to say hello... Him to say hello. Let me read. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, I guess her pronouns are she/her according to this tag so, umm, my bad. Let me see. Meet Berit. This moth loves to dream and interpret dreams for others. Yesterday she dreamt that she became a snowflake fairy princess and ruled a magical kingdom. She was about to host a snowball when suddenly she woke up. Do you have any dreams to share with Berit?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I have a dream that she leaves the screen. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hey, why are you so mean to Berit?
Em Schulz: I, I, I really do feel like five-year-olds come up with the storyline like and in a good way.
Christine Schiefer: I already have a tattoo of her on my arm.
Em Schulz: Do you have a name for your moth on your arm?
Christine Schiefer: You know I don't, I call him my little moth man so I think that has just stuck, you know?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, oh, can I tell you? Since Berit asked me about my dreams, can I tell you something real quick?
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah. What?
Christine Schiefer: So last night, umm, I decided I was going to try to astral project and so I was listening to a sleep hypnosis session or like a hypnosis session as I was falling asleep. Uh, an astral projection's hypnosis. Man, Google has everything nowadays. And so I was listening to this thing and I had it in both ears 'cause it was like the binaural beats or whatever.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I had, uh, a sleep mask on, and I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna get like really into this." So I'm like doing that thing. 'Cause I, I always thought maybe I'd be good at astro projecting because I dissociate so well from my own body and like can like leave my physical body...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Mentally, and so I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll be good at this." So it's like, you know, doing the guidance and I'm like realizing I can't feel any of my body and it's like so trippy and then all of a sudden I'm like, "Oh my God, who's that?" And I like see somebody in my mind's eye, in my...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: In my head. And I'm like, "It's me."
Em Schulz: Shut up, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: For like a split second. I was like, "Who's that?" Like I literally saw somebody and their face and they had an eye mask on, and I'm like, "Who the fuck is that?" And then I went, [gasp] I was like, "That's me," and then I like snapped out of it and I was like, "Oh my God, I think it's working." I don't know if I was just like hallucinating or what, but it was very frightening...
Em Schulz: You were... You were tearing away from your husk.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. And I loved this meditation because it kept saying like, "Don't worry, you will come back to your body. You're not gonna like, you know." So I was like, "Okay, I feel safe in this meditation," but I really saw my own husk. I was like... I think I did. I felt like I did, but then I'm like, "Maybe I'm just imagining it all," you know? My, my logical breakdown.
Em Schulz: How many, how many inches away were you from your husk? Were you like...
Christine Schiefer: Probably like this...
Em Schulz: Kissing close or?
Christine Schiefer: No, it was like, um, as if they were probably three or four feet in front of me.
Em Schulz: Alright, three or four feet. So now your new goal is what? Five feet?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: 10 feet?
Christine Schiefer: The ceiling? I don't know.
Em Schulz: The ceiling [laughter] There was a scene...
Christine Schiefer: I was... I really thought some ghost had entered my fucking mind. I was like, "Get out of here ghost. I'm trying to see myself." Oh my God.
Em Schulz: I thought you were gonna say some shit about like Harry or something was there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. Well.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Okay [laughter] The other day, Blaise was like, "Christine," and I was like, "I know he's gonna say something about a fucking ghost." I knew it. I just felt it in my bones. I 'cause I've been feeling like there's more shit going on. And I don't know if it's 'cause...
Em Schulz: You felt it in your husk?
Christine Schiefer: I felt it in my [chuckle] husk. And I didn't know if like it was because we were like repairing stuff and like painting and moving things, but I feel like something is afoot. Or it's 'cause I used that fucking ghost app during our After Hours, I don't know what happened.
Em Schulz: Dumbest thing you could do.
Christine Schiefer: So stupid.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But Blaise was like, "This thing keeps happening." I was like, "What?" He's like, "My glasses keep disappearing," and he's like, "But then they reappear in like a place where I've looked 10 times and I know where they go and." Like, he's not a careless person like I am. Like, if I lose something I'm like, "I'm sure I just accidentally threw it out the window or put it in the freezer." [laughter] Like, I don't know. Like, usually it's I did something stupid.
Em Schulz: I accidentally hammered it to the wall, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I accidentally... Em told me not to so I hammered it to the wall, my bad. [laughter] Now it's broken. Uh, but yeah, so he's not like that at all and it's the last couple weeks he's been like, "Where the hell are my glasses?" Like they just keep disappearing and then they will like reappear on his pillow or something and he's like...
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: "Did you find them?" And I'm like, "No, I didn't put them there." Uh, so I don't know. It's very weird. And he said, "Maybe there's a ghost," and he said it and I was like, "Ha ha," and then I was like, "He's starting to believe it. I feel it." And he's gonna listen to this and be like.
Em Schulz: It's happening, it's happening. Oh my god, it's happening.
Christine Schiefer: It's happening.
Em Schulz: It's happening.
Christine Schiefer: This is not a drill everybody, stay calm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, so I'm just saying I feel like Blaise has, has noticed it as well. Umm, and then the other day he came in and he was like, "Did you turn my lights on in my office upstairs?" And I was like, "No, you left them on." He's like, "Oh, okay." I was like, "He's getting scared. I feel it."
Em Schulz: He's getting freaked out, oh God.
Christine Schiefer: I know. He's gonna hate this episode. [laughter] Anyway, I'm sorry for my... For, for commandeering, but, umm, so that's my...
Em Schulz: No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Ghosty updates. How are you doing, Em?
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm good. I've... I have my glasses around my face.
Christine Schiefer: No, good. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, for now.
Em Schulz: Which, by the way, if a, if a... Like I... How badly does he need his glasses?
Christine Schiefer: Very. He was like...
Em Schulz: Like that's fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Genuinely upset. And like, he doesn't have like a... You know, I have like multiple pairs of glass or I, I did.
Em Schulz: No, I have the one.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. He's like that where he is like, "I don't... I need to see. Like I can't drive a car. I can't," and so...
Em Schulz: No, I can't either. I can't see...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, really...
Em Schulz: Further than like five inches from my face if I don't have them.
Christine Schiefer: And that's why it's so weird because like he's not... He doesn't lose his glasses. Like, I always lost my glasses, like he does not lose his glasses 'cause he needs them every second of the day. And so they will just... He'll like take a shower and come out and be like, "My glasses are gone."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's so weird. And it's happened only the last couple weeks, multiple times, so.
Em Schulz: Um, yeah. I was gonna say like it's a silly little prank until it's like a, a, a necessity. I mean like...
Christine Schiefer: A road hazard.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] And like...
Christine Schiefer: A crime. His driver's license says he needs lenses.
Em Schulz: I mean, isn't it wild that before glasses and contacts existed, if you... Like if you had bad eyesight, you just had a disability that was not taken care of. Like.
Christine Schiefer: You just had. Yes, 100%. It's...
Em Schulz: And like... Like, I mean, I... If someone, if a ghost were here, and if there is a ghost here and you're listening, they're invited to take almost anything else but my fucking glasses.
Christine Schiefer: That's how Blaise is. He was like, "This is debilitating. Like I can't lose these."
Em Schulz: Which... I mean, also, like, if you're listening, ghost, please don't take my propranalol like.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, Em, there's a lot of things I would add too.
Em Schulz: There's a lot of...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Things that my body doesn't need you maybe can have [laughter], but nothing, nothing else. Umm, like, it's, it's... It freaks me out a little bit more because it's the point of those things we've talked about before where it feels like, oh, the ghost wants you to notice, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Exactly.
Em Schulz: 'Cause if they were...
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's a game. It's just like a...
Em Schulz: Blaise's baseball hat, he's got so many he wouldn't even notice it was gone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And that disappears all the time because it's like, oh, he has like 10 of them, or 20 or 40,000 and they'd go all over like how I do with all my belongings, but the glasses, man, that's like with you. Like, they do not leave his face, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Unless he's in the shower. And if they just poof, vanished for like... One day, one day it was like two days later and they just reappeared on his nightstand and we were all like, "What the fuck."
Em Schulz: Two days later, I would've bought a whole new set of glasses at that point.
Christine Schiefer: So he had like a back... He found a backup pair that like fall off his face and stuff. But it's happening so often now, this is not a joke, he's gonna kill me for even talking about this at all, but on Amazon, I checked our Amazon orders to see when something was coming and he had bought rubber tips for the back of the like backup glasses...
Em Schulz: Oh, he's a little nerd.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he's like, "If I have to keep wearing these, they fall off my fucking face," 'cause they're like his backup glasses, he's like, "I, I... " Clearly this has become such a problem that he needed [laughter] a solution to keep them comfortable on his head. It's been a very weird couple weeks in this house, um.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, I have my glasses.
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: What else is going on? I don't know. Uh, hmm. I think everything's fine, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Good. You know what? My stepmom always says, no news is good news.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's... I guess that's what's going. I mean, I also haven't really left the house all that much, so I haven't like given the world a chance to like really do a number on me.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably for the best. Yeah. That's probably for the best.
Em Schulz: I do feel a little stressed in general about like, umm, like Allison's still gone and so the place is getting progressively worse. Umm, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: 'Cause the only reason I keep it very clean is so Allison like feels relaxed here, but I...
Christine Schiefer: Like stays your partner? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. I do it fully because I am...
Christine Schiefer: He still loves you.
Em Schulz: Because I'm fully in a relationship and if I weren't, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, same.
Em Schulz: This place would fall into shambles, which is what's happening and I'm, I'm in the midst of like the destruction happening all around me and I'm...
Christine Schiefer: I feel you.
Em Schulz: Cackling in the middle of the night's.
Christine Schiefer: You know what's funny is like, I did not know this about you, and I think I have like a misguided understanding of you because...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: When we would go to like, the apartment to do, uh, like space camp or, you know, do like one of these fun, like surprise popup things and you'd bring all these crafts and I was looking like shit show. And there's like glitter everywhere and paint and you were like, about to rip your own hair out. You were like, Christine, I can't watch you do this. Like, you're making such a mess. And I was like, man, Em is a such a fucking clean freak. I'm over here like dumping paint. I was like, look at what I can do and like, put it on my hand and like, put [laughter], like I became a literal toddler and you were having a fucking, I could see your eye twitching and you were so pissed at me. And I was like, okay, Em and I would not live well together. But now that you're saying the place is falling apart, I'm like, maybe we would, maybe we would just be a hovel. Like we would live in trash piles, [laughter], I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like Mount Trashmore or whatever it is. And like.
Christine Schiefer: It would be Mount Trashmore. It would.
Em Schulz: I, well, so I, when I am the messiest person, I feel, umm, I feel bad that I'm a mess. But then if there are other people who are messier than me, I am like, I know out of all of us, I have the responsibility to clean it. So I think that's where the difference is.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You did become kind of the parent. You're like, I feel like the parent who's now responsible for like, all of these messes. And I'm like, you brought me finger paint. I don't know what you expected would happen, but you delivered finger paint to me. And I...
Em Schulz: I I really think it's because I knew between the two of us, I'm gonna have to clean it. And so I just saw my future as you were throwing glitter on the floor. But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, you know what I say again, but why did you bring me glitter? [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's my own fault.
Christine Schiefer: I guess you'll never...
Em Schulz: I think I...
Christine Schiefer: You never did it again, so.
Em Schulz: Part of me likes it. I guess I, I at least.
Christine Schiefer: I Know you're like a sucker for it. You're like, you know what, I wanna pull my hair out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was in like... I was in my, I was still in the routine, 'cause Allison was in town at the time, so I think I was in the routine of keeping things clean. So I was...
Christine Schiefer: You were like, this is not how it works. I've been told this is not what we do.
Em Schulz: Well it also, it doesn't, it's not natural for me to be clean. So if I'm in the routine, I have the momentum going of being clean.
Christine Schiefer: I See. And then I was threatening to.
Em Schulz: But right... Right Now, if you came over and you like sneezed glitter everywhere, I'd go, whatever, you know, like it's [laughter] Like, I'm getting to that point. Like every room, like by the time when Allison gets back, she'll have no idea. Like, she'll hear this, but she'll be like, oh, I wouldn't have even known because it'll be clean by the time she's here.
Christine Schiefer: She'll be like, It wasn't she so bad. And you'll be like, you'll never know.
Em Schulz: But I'm currently living in complete filth.
Christine Schiefer: Squalor.
Em Schulz: And like, and not to be fair, 'cause I don't want people like in the comments being like, well, this is why you have roaches. I'm very clean when it comes to food, but I'm not at all tidy. Like, I'm just like, my shit is just everywhere. Like.
Christine Schiefer: You know, my mom always said that. She was like, oh, we're, we're like clean. And they are at my mom's, like, they're very, but like, just messy, like disorganized, like messy whatever. By nature. I am like not clean. Like I will literally as, you know, leave like trash piles and there will be food and like crap. Like I will, my mental illness will take over [laughter] and I'll be like, I don't care that there's mold all over the desk. It just doesn't matter to me. Like, there will be like, I, I just want people who are out there to be seen. Like I am a dirty, messy person when it, if at my worst, like if I'm in bad place.
Em Schulz: And the irony, the irony is that not a, not a goddamn roach in sight with you.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: But with me, like, I leave my like socks out and there's roaches everywhere. So I don't even know what that's about.
Christine Schiefer: But you live in an apartment building in Los Angeles, a very urban area. I think that has a lot.
Em Schulz: And Burbank specifically has a, has a roach problem it seems. So, Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So that's gonna happen no matter who lives where. I feel like that's just kind of [laughter] the environment.
Em Schulz: I forgot to tell you, I'm sorry. I just started laughing. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, Allison and I went out to get ice cream a couple weeks ago and we were, we were walking on the sidewalk and there was like, like, there was like city roaches, like the ones that are like the, like the size of rats. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool.
Em Schulz: We walked past one and Allison got so scared. She pushed me into traffic.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh, how funny. Em.
Em Schulz: I mean, there wasn't any like cars there, but like, we both got so scared we didn't know what to do and tried to leave the sidewalk and the only other place was the road.
Christine Schiefer: And it's a... [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was just a very, anyway.
Christine Schiefer: It's just Burbank things. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just silly Burbank things. But it was, no, they, oh my God, they were so fast. It made ours look like the slowest little, like, like slowest little cockroaches there ever were this thing, like, if it had wings, it would've flown right into our eyeballs. Like it was the scariest. Eugh.
Em Schulz: And some them do which is just when your nightmares become reality. Like in LA I remember those Palmetto bugs and they would just like...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Fly around.
S3: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Anyway, the place is a mess. So I am already stressing about the, the deep, deep clean I'm gonna have to do before Allison gets back. So that's why I drink and I drink my little beveragino, an LD, Liquid Death.
Christine Schiefer: Woo. Me too!
Em Schulz: Love her.
Christine Schiefer: I'm doin the rest in peach iced tea, Liquid Death.
Em Schulz: Your flavored blech. Here's my...
Christine Schiefer: You are so weird.
Em Schulz: Very lively still water...
Christine Schiefer: Plain water out of it. I cannot understand it.
Em Schulz: All right. That one's done. So let's [soda can cracking open] crack into another. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, it feels like you're like trying to suddenly go back to like a, a merch idea or something. Like, you're trying to like pitch, like you're, like, product placement is what it feels like. You're like, well, might as well look at the camera, crack into it. It's like, okay, we see what you're doing here.
Em Schulz: If I were hired.
Christine Schiefer: But you refused to lean into it for so many years, then now I'm just like, I have whiplash. Like, what is going on? But okay. I knew it.
Em Schulz: It's only when I, it's because for a long time I wasn't drinking out of cans or anything.
Christine Schiefer: No. But there were times you'd open a la and you'd say, let's get into it. And I would say, Em it's right there. And you wouldn't say it. And you, you were just like, eh, it was not your identity at the time. But I guess now now is.
Em Schulz: I, I guess, I guess I had some exploring to do first, so.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. We I understand. You'll always come back.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Prodigal son.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, umm, let's crack into it. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I have a story for you and I've wanted to do it for a while. We have gotten a million and a half comments about it, umm, which makes me nervous because I feel like I didn't find as much information as people wanted, but I, I think maybe we just have like, uh, an audience in this area. So they were hoping we'd cover.
Christine Schiefer: What is it?
Em Schulz: So, umm, this is Lake Lanier in Georgia.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know about this.
Em Schulz: Uh, so I've wanted to cover it for a while, but I wanted to make sure that I did it justice. And if you're from the area, you might know what I'm talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, first and foremost, Lake Lanier is a 38,000 acre man-made lake in Georgia.
Christine Schiefer: Oh My Lord.
Em Schulz: It has almost 700 miles of shoreline. Oh, I just burped, excuse me. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ever consummate professionals we are. [laughter]
Em Schulz: From water. Okay. Whatever. Umm, from not carbonated water. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What is, how old are we?
Em Schulz: Just from being a troll.
Christine Schiefer: We like can't even drink water without just like, falling to pieces. [laughter] Oh.
Em Schulz: If you're wondering what 30 looks like, it's drinking water and then having like chest pains all day, umm.
Christine Schiefer: And then your body rejecting it for some reason. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, man-made lakes are extremely common in the US. Uh, at my dad's house growing up, we lived on a man-made lake. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, We love 'em. This, this country, we love 'em for some reason.
Em Schulz: And I don't think a lot of people realize that even like massive lakes, like maybe their own lake, a lot of people have lived on lakes. They, that they're man-made. Some people would have no idea. Umm, fun fact for you, Alaska, do you know how many natural lakes Alaska has?
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Over 3 million.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa! I thought it was a trick question. I was gonna say zero. And then I was like, I'm gonna sound like such a fucking idiot. So I said, I don't know.
Em Schulz: No, you're good. It's a, it's a natural lakes, it has over 3 million that are bigger than five acres. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And these make up over 40% of the nation's surface water. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: And then fun fact, how many, uh, natural lakes does Maryland have? Uh.
Christine Schiefer: 80,000?
Em Schulz: None.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Dammit, I knew zero was gonna be an answer, especially when you didnt react. I threw the, I was like, I should have.
Em Schulz: I threw the Alaska in there at first to throw you with the naturals. Yeah. So...
Christine Schiefer: You really got me.
Em Schulz: Alaska has, uh, over 3 million natural lakes, but Maryland has none. If you've been on a lake in Maryland, it was man-made. So.
Christine Schiefer: I have. Oh.
Em Schulz: Well, great. [laughter] So, uh, man-made lakes, uh, do you know how they're created? I don't expect you to know, but I just, if you have an answer, you do.
Christine Schiefer: They dig a big, I've tried to make a lake before when I was little in the backyard, and...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I just dug a hole and put water in it. It didn't work. So I know it's not that.
Em Schulz: Well, it actually kind of is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Kind of kind of.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I just did it wrong. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, you, you can do it one way or you can do it the opposite way. So you can create a dam, umm, in a river, and then have it fill up a natural basin.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Or you can dig out a basin, a man-made basin...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: And then have a river fill it up.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And so probably the only reason it didn't work for you is 'cause you didn't have a dam and the basin was not down to clown. You know.
Christine Schiefer: That is, that is exactly why it didn't, that's the only reason it didn't work out when I was six and I tried to make a lake.
Em Schulz: I Get it. You're, oh, I'm just telling you what's I, I.
Christine Schiefer: Short-lived, uh, landscaping career down the drain.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, uh, man-made lakes are often created to provide drinking water for people, for agricultural irrigation, for industrial cooling. And, umm, in my opinion, one of the most important ones is flood control.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, but creating man-made lakes, which are also called reservoirs, umm, they are ecologically very controversial umm, flooding a basin destroys hundreds of thousands of acres of, uh, habitat that's near water and is very, very important. Umm, it's called, I think riparian? Riparian habitats. That means habitats that are nearby water.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So if you flood a basin, it destroys acres and acres and acres of that which creates, Umm, like creating the, the dam itself, uh, cuts the water flow and it harms things from being able to move upstream or downstream where they're supposed to.
Christine Schiefer: Oh it like blocks the natural flow of water. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's another reason why like, salmon is becoming endangered 'cause they can't get upstream anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right.
Em Schulz: And also, umm, major rivers have always carried sediment downstream, but with a dam in the way it stops the river flow and sediment can't flow. So instead it just sinks to the bottom.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And in the grand scheme of things, this means that there's very little new sediment replacing old sediment. So plants aren't rooting properly and it's destroying the wetlands, which is causing more flooding than there should be. So something as small as creating a dam hundreds of miles away can cause the wetlands on the shore to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's sad.
Em Schulz: Not be able to flood, uh, or to prevent flooding. Well, so that's why a lot of hurricanes these days have more devastating damages. Umm, and it...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: So anyway, just wanted to throw that, umm, fun little deep dive in for you. Deep dive.
Christine Schiefer: Well deep dive wink. Well, if you had told me that when I was six, maybe I wouldn't have tried to make a lake.
Em Schulz: I have a feeling your dam was about the size of like a solo cup or something.
Christine Schiefer: You know, you know what Em!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Who told you about my secret tool I was using.
Em Schulz: I feel like you were just scooping with a rock or something and accidentally just helping the, the ecosystem.
Christine Schiefer: Of course, that's what I was doing. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so here's where we get into some of the darker history of man-made lakes in general, but, umm, this is what leads into Lake Lanier near, so.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Reservoirs are also super controversial socially because a lot of these man-made lakes are built on top of towns, umm, and not like the town was already flooded, so let's take advantage of it and just make it a lake. But like towns were intentionally flooded and destroyed with the purpose of creating a lake on top of it.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously?
Em Schulz: Hundreds of, of flooded towns out there.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Were flooded to be, to create reservoirs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: So an example of this is like, Lake Mead was actually, umm, an ancient indigenous settlement that's now called the Lost City.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, and historically, if a town was going to be flooded, residents would be told with very little notice. So...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: They couldn't really pack everything up. Umm, they were also sometimes paid, but the compensation was like not enough to like recoup like how much you're losing from your fucking job.
Christine Schiefer: A whole living Yeah.
Em Schulz: And a lot of these towns were also like farmland. So farmers were already hurting.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And now you're paying them less than a farmer's wage and they're having to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus.
Em Schulz: They don't have enough time. So, I mean, I don't know what these devastation looked like, but I, I imagine it'd be hard for those people to get, to get all their animals out in time and stuff like that.
Christine Schiefer: That's so sad.
Em Schulz: Umm, or even just their own like livestock, their whatever's in their own home, you know? Umm, and one of the most, uh, notorious examples of this is Lake Lanier. So it was once home to indigenous people for at least 12,000 years, umm, until thousands were forcibly relocated, so white farmers could move in.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And then by the late 18 hundreds, uh, there were less white people. And this town had actually become Oscarville, which was a thriving community founded by free black Americans.
Christine Schiefer: Oh oh. Okay. Oh, I see where this is going.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's, nowhere good.
Christine Schiefer: Nowhere good.
Em Schulz: Umm, so it became Oscarville, it was known as a successful black community. There were many tradespeople there, farmers there. Umm, but by 1912, uh, during 1912, there were, I think over a thousand black residents living in Oscarville. Umm, many were landowners, it was just known as like a successful black town. Umm, and white southerners that live nearby hated...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Of course. Black success, black power, black excellence. So...
Christine Schiefer: Dear Lord.
Em Schulz: Umm, the tipping point for white people, umm, was when an 18 year old white woman named Mae Crow, she was, Umm, attacked. I think she was assaulted and then beaten and ultimately murdered by three black men. That was the story that came out. Umm, and I think there was like no evidence of who the three black men were, but Ernest Knox, Oscar Daniel and Rob Edwards were accused, charged, tried and convicted in one day.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool. Great. Awesome.
Em Schulz: 5,000 white people came out to watch their lynchings.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm sure this is all above board.
Em Schulz: And then, oh, and by the way, they were tried, of course, by all white juries.
Christine Schiefer: Well, sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, so 5,000 people came out to watch their lynchings, and then, uh, the white residents attacked the town. Uh, they came into this area, uh, which is, by the way in...
Christine Schiefer: I've heard this. Did somebody do a, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Did somebody do like a movie about this? I feel like I've, I've definitely.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Seen a retelling of this recently.
Em Schulz: Have, have you heard of Forsyth County?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. "Gasp".
Em Schulz: Okay. So that's where this is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, I know why. It's because I cover, I think I covered a story in Forsyth County. Isn't that where that murder took or not murder that like mysterious death. Okay. I don't know. Uh, nevermind. I, I do know about this county. I think I've covered a story from there and, and talked about the history of it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. So Lake Lanier near, uh, or Oscar, Oscarville is in Forsyth County. And, uh, that's where the story is taking place. So, umm, the white residents of Forsyth, uh, grew much more violent after this white woman was attacked and the three men were lynched, they basically told all the black people in town, get the fuck out, you're not wanted here. Umm, they burnt down all the black owned homes, businesses, churches. And eventually within the next few years, every black resident fled Oscarville, Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sorry. Just remembered Tamla Horsford. Uh, she was the one who was found dead after spending like the, uh, doing like an adult sleepover at, with all those white women.
Em Schulz: Oh, that was in Forsyth County?
Christine Schiefer: It was in Forsyth County. And that's why it became such like a...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hugely sensational case because the woman who died under mysterious circumstances was black. She was with all the other football moms at like a slumber party, and she was found in the backyard and like, nobody really knew what happened. And part of it was the context was this story, like the con the story of the county of the town?
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and how, like, that was kind of like a, a gas like waiting to be ignited by the, you know. It was really crazy, but I, I do remember that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So my next bullet is let's deep dive into Forsyth County. Umm, which...
Christine Schiefer: Great. Well, apparently I did already, but I don't remember. So you can tell me more.
Em Schulz: You'll, I think you'll remember as soon as I say a couple certain things 'cause there's, you'll, let's see. So there are parts of Lake Lanier that are in Forsyth County, which is where Oscarville was. And at one point it was said to be incredibly racist. It was openly a sundown town.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I guess according to your story, there's still, it's still a bit of a hotbed of racism. I don't, I'm sure there's some lovely people that live there, but this town does have quite a history. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I think the history just bubbles up when it's, you know, put in such stark contrast, like with that, that death.
Em Schulz: An example that you might remember of Forsyth County is that in 1987, Oprah Winfrey went to Forsyth County.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You remember now?
Christine Schiefer: I do. Yeah.
Em Schulz: To feature, to feature it on her show. It's actually a 45 minute segment, which I did watch all of it last night, and then needed to like detox afterwards.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. I haven't watched it. So, yikes.
Em Schulz: There's a much quicker version, like a recap on, umm, YouTube if you wanna watch it. Umm, but Oprah went there because there hadn't been a black resident there in...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Almost 80 years from 1912 to 1987. Ever since that, uh, that woman was attacked. There hasn't been a single black person that's lived in that town. So, umm, I think after watching the 45 minute segment, I got some better context on it that there was, I think there were talks of like black people wanting to move back. I don't. Or like talk, like, I don't know how the discussion came up, because I don't know if they wanted to or if it was a hypothetical, but the townspeople started freaking out and a protest was held in town.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, about white brotherhood.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, uh, 20,000 something people came out to be part of this march. Black people counter marched, uh, at the same time. And you can see them being pelted with rocks. Literally, David Duke, the Grand Wizard of the KKK was there. Umm, and the feature had clips of people just walking around in their KKK robes and chanting slurs and saying, black people aren't welcome here. It was just horrendous.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so Oprah hold, held a panel, and I will say a majority of the people, she, she held a panel of all the people who actually live in town.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and a lot of them were like, this is bullshit. Like, we welcome everybody. So I appreciate...
Christine Schiefer: It's like the loudest get the, like, headline...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And stuff. Yeah. Which is unfortunate.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So it's, it's not that Forsyth County is 100% racist.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's just that they have quite a number of loud folks in the town.
Christine Schiefer: Vocal [laughter], vocal minority. Yeah. Fuck that.
Em Schulz: So that was just to give you an idea of what this town looked like even in, in 1987, 80 years later, umm, that they had to have a panel about whether or not they should allow people other than white people to live here.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, and after this, at the, during the last census, they recorded that Forsyth County wasn't even 5% black. So it's still heavily, you know, prejudiced I would guess. I would assume that there, there's quite a few people out there who would think that. But I just wanted to give you a recap on Forsyth County and going back to Oscarville after they drove all the black people out of the town, the army then took the area and used it as a reservoir project, which...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Which it, it's not like it's entirely the, the town or Forsyth County's doing, but the government took advantage of the fact that now there was this empty town.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, when they flooded the towns, they sunk landmarks, stores, schools, churches, cemeteries, they all became the bottom of the current lake.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, that like makes my heart sink, like that's so dark.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, how could people just be like, oh, it's not a big deal. I mean, you're just drowning an entire town's worth of history and culture and like people's homes.
Em Schulz: Also, umm, because white people drove all the black people outta the area out of fear, they really abandoned ship. It wasn't like they were there to claim and relocate family graves.
Christine Schiefer: Right. True.
Em Schulz: Like, or.
Christine Schiefer: Graves. I didn't even think of graves or, uh, important documents or.
Em Schulz: Documents, I was gonna say...
Christine Schiefer: The sentimental stuff.
Em Schulz: Archives of, you know, history. There actually was, I think it was also Oprah. If it wasn't Oprah. It was, it was some news. I don't want, I don't know which one it was, but somebody, umm, actually tried to reach out recently to, umm, descendants of Oscarville residents and was able to find people who actually could tell the stories that their grandparents...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Had told them about Oscarville which, that was a really interesting segment too. But it's just so sad, so much history was just destroyed immediately. And, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Without, without thought or input from the people who actually lived there.
Em Schulz: And not at all fun fact. But there are many communities, communities, like I said earlier, that have been flooded and turned into reservoirs. But of course a lot of them are black communities that were run out and then flooded. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And this is either through overt or systemic racism. Umm, examples of this are Delta Park, Oregon that was a black town once called Vanport, umm, in Alabama, Lake Martin, which is still there was actually two black towns called Kowaliga and Susannah, or Sousana. And then Central Park, New York City used to be two black, uh, communities called York Hill and Seneca Village.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: So just some examples for you.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, on top of all that history, uh, and the bodies that were sank by the government, these were also, again, one sacred indigenous sites. So just two kicks to the crotch.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: And for the third, uh, this lake was named after a southern confederate. So.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Why not? We'll just put cherry on top, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The racist cherry on top.
Em Schulz: Uh, so today, anyway, I'm sorry to like bum everybody out, but I also like, would've definitely been an asshole to not talk about that. So.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. It's, it is really important to the, I mean, mix, mix. It's also fascinating, you know, I mean, as fucked up as it is, it's important to that we remember it.
Em Schulz: It is also wild that like, some people are just like out there jet skiing and like there's a fucking school underneath you or something. Like, there's...
Christine Schiefer: Like cemeteries or like...
Em Schulz: There's cars, there's...
Christine Schiefer: Grocery stores. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So today it's a tourist attraction in an affluent, very white area, uh, that it brings in about $5 billion a year.
Christine Schiefer: No. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: With 10 million annual visitors. Umm, and some stats, I said this was a very white area. Some stats suggest that this town is up to 70% white for this area. Umm, Lake Lanier is also particularly dangerous for a man-made reservoir because, uh, multiple drownings, boating incidents, whatever it is. But it's, but it's oddly dangerous, umm, from 19...
Christine Schiefer: Like, they don't know why?
Em Schulz: Like we think it, the story goes, it might be the ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: Cursed. I see...
Em Schulz: From 1994 into until this summer, last month, umm, almost 230 people have died in this lake.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] And just for clarification, if you're listening to this podcast in 40 years, because that's what...
Em Schulz: Alright.
Christine Schiefer: I tell myself, uh, the year is 2023. So from '94 to '23 you said?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: Not even, not even 30 years, 230 people have died in this lake.
Christine Schiefer: That really seems high.
Em Schulz: Umm, at the time that these notes were done, it was eight deaths had already happened this year. But as of TikTok last night, 12 have already died this year.
Christine Schiefer: Are you shitting me?
Em Schulz: Umm, and since the lake's creation, because we don't know a lot past 1994, but the assumption is since the lake's creation there have been 700 deaths.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: One of the most recent deaths, uh, was 10 days ago. Uh, our researcher Googled Lake Lanier deaths. And within the hour of researching that there was a new death.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That's like the worst Google alert you want. You know, you're like, oh, just finishing up these notes, I'll put a pin in this. And it's like update. Oof.
Em Schulz: Yep. Still updating. So, umm, like I said, most are drownings, boating accidents. Umm, a lot of them are also electrocutions because, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: The electricity in the boats being released into the water, or like the power box on the docks, umm, AKA this is why you don't swim in Marinas. Umm, because all the electricity in the water in that one spot.
Christine Schiefer: That's terrifying.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, but many believe that the lake's history caused a curse on the lake, uh, which threatens all who enter it. So it's just a lot of bad energy there that is radiating still. And there's a lot of eerie phenomenon. So in 1958, this is one of the bigger stories people still talk about, is that a girl named Delia and another girl named Susie, they were on the Jackson Bridge, the Jerry D. Jackson Bridge, uh, right over the lake when they lost control of their car in some way and crashed into the lake.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: 18 months later, a fisherman found a woman's body floating in the lake,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Missing both of her hands.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And they were like, that's odd. There's a story there. And this woman was just buried in an unmarked grave 'cause no one knew who she was.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. It was not one of the girls?
Em Schulz: They didn't know. They just found a woman at 18 months...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. [gasp]
Em Schulz: After this car crash. Umm, but she was buried in an unmarked grave. And soon after she was buried, people started regularly seeing a ghost on the bridge of a woman with no hands.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: So now many people think that it could have been her.
Christine Schiefer: I see, I see.
Em Schulz: Umm, she has become known as the Lady of the Lake. People still see her today. And some say she's either a residual haunting of one of the women, or maybe she wants to grab you and pull you off the bridge and down to the lake. Which like, good luck. You don't have hands.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: But you could try.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, Em... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, like if she's known to grab you, I'd be like, it's even creepier 'cause she doesn't have hands. I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: It is worse. It is somehow worse.
Em Schulz: So her, her ghost has ghost, ghost hands. You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. There. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. I gotcha.
Em Schulz: Uh, so yeah, she became known as the Lady of the Lake and 30 years later, by the way, the bridge was undergoing construction and the crew found the woman's car in the lake. And Susie's remains were found in the car underneath the bridge.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So I don't know if she didn't have hands or not, but that could probably be really useful information. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: But wasn't the woman who has already found the one without hands.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. So I guess if they found Susie's remains, then Delia was the one without hands.
Christine Schiefer: Right so that must have been Delia... That may have been Delia. Yeah.
Em Schulz: May have been Delia. Umm, believers in the Lady of the Lake hoped that this would like put her spirit to rest. That both people had been discovered. But since this, there have been even more sightings.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Really?
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. So it's interesting 'cause they did like, uh, whatever they could for a proper burial they found remains and...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: She's still seen.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe there's something to the accident that she wants people to know, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Ouija board on the bridge?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Maybe later.
Em Schulz: You would say yes.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I know I'm in...
Em Schulz: Don't even with your, I don't know, let me think about it.
Christine Schiefer: Who am I kidding.
Em Schulz: There's another, uh, spirit, which is extra eerie to me. It is a ghost of a raft that floats on the lake at night and appears from thin air in front of boaters. Just a random raffle would just bump into your boat?
Christine Schiefer: Is it like hope aboard.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't don't know. Is it...
Christine Schiefer: Is it like... I don't know. Is it trying to lure you into the water? That's creepy.
Em Schulz: So a lot of boaters have claimed to also see a shadow figure nearby pushing the raft along with a pole.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh. Like fucking river sticks. Like that seems like a ancient, like an ancient... I don't know. Eugh, creepy.
Em Schulz: Well, so even though the water's too deep to tread, this person looks like they're gliding through the water, pushing this raft with a stick. And some believe this is a residual spirit from before the lake was made when people worked the waterways here. And so maybe this is a worker who used to push boats.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And like that floated through shallow streams.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. He's like, here's the water. I know what to do.
Em Schulz: Which is also interesting 'cause that implies that ghosts float because wouldn't he be haunting the bottom of the lake where he could stand at one point.
Christine Schiefer: Where the water would've been at the time. Good point.
Em Schulz: But now he's floating all the way up here, so.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You'll float too! That's what Pennywise [laughter] the clown says.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, so apparently this raft has an old lit lantern that lets you see the figure's shadow until...
Christine Schiefer: That's creepy.
Em Schulz: Until the shadow and the raft vanish into the dark.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that does feel like a under underworld, like.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It feels very ominous.
Em Schulz: One story is that, umm, one night the fisherman saw the raft and actually heard someone yelling. And so he dove in to help. And only when he came back up from diving in the raft was gone.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So it really does kind of sound like it's luring you into the water.
Christine Schiefer: Get people in. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, if you, there's, this is an urban legend, which like, I'm curious if your town had anything like this, but they said if you swam in the lake in your underwear on a Sunday, like one of those crazy ones, uh, you could actually hear the old town belows church bells...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Ringing underwater which...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I love that. The underwear part is hilarious, but the rest of it is very spooky. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's also like the church is saying like, you're sinning, like get more than your underwear on or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see your butt, ding dong.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like sin, sinful.
Christine Schiefer: Get out of here, sinner.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't it be weird to think, sorry, real quick of like, you know how we talk about sometimes time slips or like witnessing kind of a clash in time where you're accidentally like seeing the past or the future. Wouldn't it be wild if you lived in that town and you got a glimpse of the future and it was just like, the whole place is fucking underwater. You'd be so confused like that...
Em Schulz: Can you imagine looking up in the sky and there's someone floating around in their underwear?
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, [laughter], I'm so confused. What is going on? [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, but it is, it is really wild. And umm, I obviously, we've talked about this a million times where I think of glitches in, in...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The multiverse or whatever it is. I can't imagine getting a glimpse of everything like underwater or like, what would that mean for you? Can you not breathe or like that?
Christine Schiefer: Right, exactly. Is that like you're there actually? Or is it you're just dream like maybe a dream of it? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, I can't imagine. Like, it also really makes me wonder and like, it's kind of dystopian in a way.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But like, I think about the room I'm in right now and I'm like, in a hundred years, what's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: What's right where I'm sitting?
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Like, is there someone else also sitting here? Or is this like, has nature taken over and it's just back to woods? Or like...
Christine Schiefer: Is this, is the roaches have taken over [laughter], the roaches are now podcasting on your behalf.
Em Schulz: But everywhere. I like, I, I walk or sit down if I'm like, if I think too long about it, I'm like, what was here a hundred years ago and what's going to be here in a hundred years?
Christine Schiefer: I think about that constantly. I'm so glad you said that.
Em Schulz: I also think about it constantly.
Christine Schiefer: My intrusive thoughts are always, they're not always bad. Sometimes they're just like, do you think that whoever sat here had to wear a Victorian like corset back in 1880? [laughter] You know, I'm like, I don't know. 'Cause I'm in sweatpants. Are they mad about it? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well also, I mean, I think about it even with like, I think about it sometimes in a very sweet way where I'm like, in this room at some point or on this property, like if the building went away and I, I floated down to the ground and you know, on this piece of sidewalk, like, did someone ever have like their first kiss in this space? And like, I'm just like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I never...
Em Schulz: In a room where something really special happened.
Christine Schiefer: Ever thought that, I've always thought I bet somebody learned that their family member died in this house. I'm like, I bet something tragic happened during the war in this house.
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: But I should start flipping it. I like the positive aspect.
Em Schulz: Well. I was gonna say I, the range is really wide for me because it can go there or it can go like, oh, with all the like history that's been erased, like what happened to indigenous people right where I'm standing. You know like they... It goes.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know, that part is always, always gonna be bad. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It can be incredibly tender or it can be really fucking horrid depending on my mood.
Christine Schiefer: But even with that... But, but then you think back then too, like probably some really wonderful tender things happened before they got displaced.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: You know. So there's...
Em Schulz: Also, think about this. Even before indigenous people, was a dinosaur here...
Christine Schiefer: A dinosaur fell in love with somebody.
Em Schulz: But did a dinosaur like die from a meteor crash? Right where I am?
Christine Schiefer: Probably. Yes.
Em Schulz: But also...
Christine Schiefer: But it's a cycle of life baby.
Em Schulz: Okay. Hey. All right. Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ah, this is what I tell myself when the intrusive thoughts start like [laughter] knocking the door down. I'm like, it's just a circle of life.
Em Schulz: You're like, that's Hollywood baby. That's how, that's how it goes.
Christine Schiefer: It's Hollywood baby. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Naked underwear, people in the sky on Sundays.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I can't get over that. That would be one of those trippy things where you're like, I had the weirdest dream.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: And like it would make no sense. But then...
Em Schulz: It makes you wonder...
Christine Schiefer: We're all under water and there was a naked teenager floating around and the church bell was going off. But like.
Em Schulz: It makes you wonder if like, if any dreams are possible.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like nonsense dreams that don't make any sense. You're like maybe in the future.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You don't know. Well, so, uh, we were, we were talking about how Lake Lanier can be very dangerous to swim in. And it can also be very dangerous for divers specifically. I don't know how many people are out there diving in a lake, but.
Christine Schiefer: Stop diving in there.
Em Schulz: Uh, this is because, and this is another kind of trippy thought, is that a lot of underwater debris that we can't see from the town floating up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, of course. Like why would they not even think of that? Like, bricks are gonna get loose, you know? I mean.
Em Schulz: Think of like someone's cookbook just smacking you in the face. Like.
Christine Schiefer: Literally. Like a foundation of someone's house just decides to like pop on up.
Em Schulz: Trees, underwater trees.
Christine Schiefer: Trees. What are you thinking?
Em Schulz: A fence, a car.
Christine Schiefer: Nonsense. A picket fence just poke you in the butt. It's... This is nonsense.
Em Schulz: We're so lucky. We're so lucky that cars don't float because think of all the cars that would just come flying up, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Just like, you know when you put something underwater and then it like shoots back like one of those...
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Floating boards. Oh, it would be so dangerous.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. No one could dive, no one could be in the water. [laughter] So it's really dangerous from underwater debris from the town, but also, umm, currents near the dams that have been created. They are also very threatening to divers. There's like underwater whirlpools and things like that. And a lot of divers have actually said when swimming in open water, they will like run into something like head on that they, something in their path that they actually, they don't know what it is.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And when they come up or when they start investigating what they ran into that they couldn't see at the time, it's a straight up apparition of a human body.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And they think it's like they found a drowning victim. So they'll hold on to like, try to help them to shore and the body will vanish out of their hands.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's a nightmare.
Em Schulz: That's a new one.
Christine Schiefer: That's a new one. That's terrifying.
Em Schulz: To find... And does that mean like bodies of the people that used to live down there are floating up and they're go, or like that's the ghost of a body from down below?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or is that the ghost of a drowning victim or...
Christine Schiefer: One of 300 people who've died there. Yeah. Eugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So just terrible. There's also boats that have crashed hitting something in the middle of the lake, but when they go looking for what it was, there's nothing they could have collided with.
Christine Schiefer: Why is anybody on this lake? This sounds terrible and scary. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Drownings are very odd here. Even strong swimmers will drown in incredibly shallow water, which is like kind of a universal warning of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyone can drown in any level of water, but apparently it happens an odd amount here. Several people who have nearly drowned have also said that they weren't drowning, but they felt someone yanking them under the water and there was no one else around.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like that is one of those childhood nightmares that everybody I think can relate to.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, this led to rumors that drownings are actually caused by the ghosts of the bodies in the water who have either never been recovered or are one of the more recent bodies, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: That have also died nearby. Some people have seen the spirit of a boy who drowned here wandering the shoreline, and some people even hear him yelling for help.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: But when they go, when they look to him, he's yelling for help while standing up in shallow water. So he doesn't actually need your help, he's just trying to lure you in.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. From the shore? Like he wants you to walk in.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Yep. He just wants you to get in the water. Umm, this has, uh, made people wonder if he really needs your help or if he's luring you in. Other people claim to see ghosts under the water floating near the surface, but not being able to get outta the surface as if they're trapped under like a sheet of ice or something.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: It's like they're near the water and can't get, they can't break the surface.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: Umm, so.
Christine Schiefer: Goosecam.
Em Schulz: Like, what does that mean? Does that mean they're really, they floated up and they just couldn't get out? Or did they drown and they couldn't make their way up? And so their ghost is...
Christine Schiefer: And they're trying to like, make contact. Eugh.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine a residual haunting of someone who drowned? So like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: The ghost can never get out of the water.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like that loop of like watching them drown. That's horrific.
Em Schulz: Umm, sometimes people also hear angry voices calling their name in the water, also trying to lure them in.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: People hear unexplained sounds. They see lights, they hear music and singing and talking that are all reported on the water, even if you're on a boat alone with nobody nearby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Despite the hauntings, the history and the controversies of this man-made lake, and all man-made lakes, umm, people of Lake Lanier are unlikely to change anything considering again, their $5 billion annual profit umm.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say also. I feel like this is probably such a popular spot that like half our listeners are like, don't tell me not to swim there. My family goes every, you know what I mean? I feel like...
Em Schulz: Someone could be...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, why are you going in there? And probably everybody's like, 'cause I go there during the summertime, weirdo, it's my vacation. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Somebody could be on their boat right now listening to us. And they're like...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. I wonder if they saved this episode for that and they're gonna be like, hmm...
Em Schulz: For their big summer trip. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Awkward [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, there's a historian named Lisa Russell, and I'm just gonna end on a quote from, from Lisa that says, "A haunting is something difficult to ignore or forget. Something poignant and evocative. And the real haunting in this story is how history has made it impossible to ignore what was done to the land in North Georgia. Once a land of wild rivers, north Georgia is now broken with dams and human made bodies of water that changed the ecosystem. And once a land that belonged to indigenous people, it is now buried under the water making recovery of that lost culture impossible." So, uh, it's scary on every level.
Christine Schiefer: It's heavy.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's heavy stuff. I mean, and it makes sense why it would have such a dark energy if, I mean, you know, it doesn't sound like it has a dark energy for the most part, if you're just like there on a boat having fun, but you know, it, it makes sense that people think it's cursed or has a dark energy to it if it does have such a bleak history.
Em Schulz: But I can also see... I can also see why it makes such a profit, because it's a lake for anyone. If you're a historian, if you are trying to preserve culture...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: If you like ghosts, if you just like being on the fucking water.
Christine Schiefer: If you... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like there's a reason to be there for any group of people, it seems like.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like I think if you, if I didn't know this story and someone said like, I wanna go there, I'd be like, sure. Yeah. I don't know. Why not? So you can follow me.
Em Schulz: Or, or you can know a lot about it and still wanna go and just...
Christine Schiefer: And still go. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And give it like it's, it's, you know, respect or something. So there's, it's obviously a tourist attraction, but I can see why so many different types of tourists probably are lured to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Drawn to it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder listeners out there, if you, uh, I hope you don't mind my kind of flippant remarks about this lake, umm, but I am curious to know if you've had any spooky encounters, anybody out there who's been here? You know.
Em Schulz: I, I will say we've had a lot of requests. My DMs at one point. Were filled with people who are...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting...
Em Schulz: Near Lake Lanier. So, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if they've had any stories. Send them to our email. I'm curious.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: They're probably like, we have already. [laughter] I was just...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Not looking at it, but. Wow. Good story.
Em Schulz: Uh, but yeah. So there it is.
Christine Schiefer: That's one of my favorites so far. Em, that was, I didn't know you could have a such a haunted lake. I didn't know that was a thing.
Em Schulz: I mean, 700 deaths and its since its creation and like...
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: And like almost a third of that was in the last 30 years. Like oy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So last comment guys, be careful please out there like go have fun, but just please be careful.
Em Schulz: Bring a life jacket or something. Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And Em is right. You can drown in an inch of water anybody, no matter how proficient you are at swimming. So please be careful.
Em Schulz: And if you see a raft at night, don't, don't look at it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't even think about looking at it. Just let them go on by. Alright, Em, I am so excited for my story today.
Em Schulz: Ah! Why?
Christine Schiefer: I'm covering a cowboy.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Well, here we go folks. Everyone you can leave. It's, it's Christine's time alone with her cowboy. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I'm having a moment with Billy the Kid.
Em Schulz: If, is it... Wait, really? Is it the Billy? Oooh.
Christine Schiefer: Billy the Kid.
Em Schulz: Oh man. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oooh.
Em Schulz: So for anyone who's for some reason decided to join listening to the podcast for the first time ever, and this is your first episode with us, umm, Christine has quite an interest in cowboys and...
Christine Schiefer: What is it like? But usually it's cowboy ghosts. Like, it's not even just like cowboys, but after, after thinking about it for quite a while and like really trying to dig into it, I think it's like also cowboy, like all cow, like wild west...
Em Schulz: Blaise, if you're listening, be a cowboy for Halloween. It's like not that hard. [laughter] Especially in Kentucky.
Christine Schiefer: It's not that hard.
Em Schulz: Just figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: Just go buy some cowboy boots, then there is something.
Em Schulz: Just buy some stirrups and, uh, [laughter], you know, and a hat.
Christine Schiefer: There's something like so endearing and intriguing. Like, I don't know if I like, you know, past life lived in the old West or something, but there's something like, so, umm, just like I'm enamored by Wild West stuff. I don't know. And weirdly, it actually occurred to me, I was thinking about it a few weeks ago. That's how often I think about the Wild West [laughter] umm, like too entirely abnormally often. Umm, but I, I had this suddenly this flash where I remember being a kid and we were driving through...
Em Schulz: Billy the Kid? [laughter] I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Good one. I was driving through, uh, like the desert out by, uh, Death Valley with my mom and brother on a trip. And I remember her like getting really teary eyed and she cried like the whole time and she just kept saying, I've been here before.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she, she grew up in Germany, obsessed with like spaghetti westerns, all Wild West stuff. Obsessed, like to a scary degree, was everything cowboy, everything Wild West, all of that old western stuff. And, uh, so when she went, she started crying and she was like, I've been here before. I've, I've lived here before.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she doesn't say that very often, Very often.
Em Schulz: I've had that, I've had that before. But before I move on, I, you were having a tender moment, so I could not interrupt, but what on God's green Earth is a spaghetti western?
Christine Schiefer: What? What do you mean? What is a spaghetti western?
Em Schulz: What are you talking about? Like an Italian? Western?
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious?
Em Schulz: Are you serious?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like a western, Wild West movie.
Em Schulz: Spaghetti. How would, how is that involved? This can't, I can't be the only person on earth with this question.
Christine Schiefer: I think you might be, maybe you're not. But I feel like you...
Em Schulz: Spaghetti western? Where would I have learned that?
Christine Schiefer: Everywhere?
Em Schulz: Everyone's learned that spagh...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know. Maybe not.
Em Schulz: Are you not gonna tell me what it is? I'm still sitting here.
Christine Schiefer: It's a movie. It's a movie. It's a Wild West movie.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's a movie?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a type of movie. No, no. It's like a genre.
Em Schulz: I still don't understand. There you go...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Here, I'll read the Wikipedia. The Spaghetti Western is a broad sub-genre of Western films. Produ... Oh, okay. Well, they were produced in Europe, I guess.
Em Schulz: Oh, Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But they were known, they were directed by Italians, typically. So they were called like spaghetti westerns. Okay. Because they were like western films, but made by, uh, Europeans. But I mean, it's a very, very comm... I mean, I don't know about that.
Em Schulz: In your house. Maybe. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. But like, let me read some, okay. I'm gonna read list of spaghetti westerns. Did Eva respond? Does she know what it is?
Em Schulz: Eva say no. Don't make me look like a fool.
Christine Schiefer: She's gonna say something very like in between. Sorry, Em. Yeah, it is a pretty common term. Okay, good. I feel better now. I was like, am I having...
Em Schulz: If if someone, if someone else out there didn't know what I was talking about, could, could someone else out there comment or tag me? I guess I feel so alone.
Christine Schiefer: Okay I guess... I guess what I'm surprised by is that you've never heard the term. Like, I feel like.
Em Schulz: At all.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of people probably have heard it and are like, I don't really know what that is. But you've really never heard it. Well, anyway, like basically all those...
Em Schulz: Also west... Westerns are not at all like my, like, they're your cup of tea. It's not even like on my shelf. Like, I so I...
Christine Schiefer: But I don't think I've ever watched one. Like, I don't think it's my thing at all. Like, I don't, I mean, it's my mom's thing definitely. But like, uh, let me read some The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.
Em Schulz: Oh I...
Christine Schiefer: I, I don't know. Just all those famous westerns Django. Um, there's a lot anyway.
Em Schulz: I had no I... No idea. Okay. So my mind's already blown and we haven't even gotten to your story yet. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, in any case, uh, when you were like, I don't wanna interrupt, I was like, what could you possibly be interrupting about? And then you said, spaghetti western. I was like, okay, we should probably discuss that if we're gonna continue.
Em Schulz: But imagine if I said like, oh, I love lasagna horrors. Like, you would be like, what the fuck is that? Like, that's how crazy it sounded to me.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like, I just, it's rare that like, I know a pop culture term or like a, a movie term especially, I don't watch movies ever. I'm like, not a mo... I'm, I'm very bad at movies, cinema, film, like not my jam at all. So I'm, it's rare for me to know something that you don't, I feel like.
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: Very off my footing is off. You know? I feel taken aback.
Em Schulz: You are superior. Yeah. In terms of...
Christine Schiefer: No no I'm not 'cause like...
Em Schulz: The the slang today.
Christine Schiefer: I just genuinely was like, taken aback that, uh, I don't know. Anyway, sorry. But yes, A spaghetti western is like a, one of those classic old like cowboy films. I, I don't...
Em Schulz: I'm with you now.
Christine Schiefer: Really Watch those. It's not even my thing to like watch. But I think there's something, there's a draw there for me where I'm like, I feel at home with the Old West Saloon style. Uh, there's something. So anyway, my theory, 'cause I'm just going cuckoo off the wall bananas today.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Is that my mom and I, 'cause I do think she and I have spent a lot of lifetimes together. I have a theory that at some point we were out, like in the west somewhere, like out in the trekking across, you know.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: In some different relationship format. So that's my theory 'cause it didn't occur to me until recently when I thought about my mom's, like, since she was like five, her obsession with the old West living in Germany.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it never really occurred to me. And then I was like, I'm obsessed with cowboys. And then it kind of clicked and I went, oh, maybe there's like a, a connection. I don't know. Maybe not but.
Em Schulz: I had... I had a, umm, like a past life regression done. And I honestly don't know how.
Christine Schiefer: You did?! Why didn't you talk about it?
Em Schulz: This was... This was years and years.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: This was before I think we were even friends.
Christine Schiefer: You've never talked about this.
Em Schulz: Because I don't really know how accurate it was. It didn't really feel right. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I know what you mean. Where you're like, am I just inventing this? Was it like, you just felt like you were imagining it?
Em Schulz: So maybe I'm using the wrong, I went to somebody who was able to tell me about my past lives. Is that not what a past life...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so it wasn't a regression. They just did a reading?
Em Schulz: A reading. A reading.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And I was in Sedona and it was like, kind of, they have a place on every corner. So I don't know how, you know what I mean? I don't know how...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Accurate it was. Um, but the first thing they said when they saw me was that I used to be a cowboy. And I was like, really? I've never felt that at all. But that was like, apparently the most powerful thing they pulled out of it was like, oh, you were a cowboy. I was like, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like you would not get on a horse. You'd be like, no thanks. Umm.
Em Schulz: I mean I used to do horseback riding, remember?
Christine Schiefer: That's true. But you don't strike me as someone who was like super into it.
Em Schulz: I yeah, no, I'm, I'm not like, certainly of all the people I've ever been reincarnated from, it was not Billy the Kid. Let's be clear. Like, um.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I swear I remember when I did the Akashic record reading for you, but I still don't know if I'm making it all up. But I got that you were a blacksmith in a past life.
Em Schulz: That's why I always, I've always felt that way anyway, so that one makes more sense to me.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. Okay. That made me feel good 'cause I was, that is what I always weirdly envisioned you as like, old timey blacksmith in like colonial...
Em Schulz: Well it also makes a little more sense. So like, I don't know about any other lives, so I can only talk about this one and maybe that one. But like, wanting to work with my hands and like, I've always been really connected to that like, era. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. That is true. That hands-on.
Em Schulz: And like, I've always like, even I know how like gross this is. Trust me, I wish I could just like, not feel this way, but like something about like the Colonial Williamsburg era. Like there's something there that like, I'm just always like weirdly fascinated by and like, it, it doesn't happen anywhere else. Which that was a big blacksmith era. So I don't know. There's, I, that one, I would believe a lot more than a cowboy.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: I have really no connection to cowboys.
Christine Schiefer: That's so weird 'cause I, yeah. And I also have no connection to cowboys, but for some reason I do [laughter] I'm like it's so weird.
Em Schulz: No, I have no spiritual connection.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
Em Schulz: I have no like even interest in it the way you do. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, I'm, I don't know. And I, whatever. Anyway, this is Billy the Kid...
Em Schulz: Well, hey, I'm so excited. I'm so excited.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like you'll like this story. It's, it's pretty crazy. I really didn't know most of it. Umm, I knew some of it, but not, not the depths of it. Umm, it's a, it's a wild story. So Billy, the kid, he was actually born Henry McCarty, believe it or not.
Em Schulz: Huh? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Not, not even Billy. Not even William.
Em Schulz: Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah. Crazy. He was likely born, we think in late 1859 to a woman named Catherine McCarty. And she was an Irish immigrant living in poverty in New York City. Umm, we don't know who his father is, but he and his mother, during his childhood, they relocated to Indianapolis. And so they moved out, you know, west. And in 1873, Catherine married a man who became Henry's stepfather. And his name was William Antrim. And...
Em Schulz: Billy the adult.
Christine Schiefer: There you go. You're onto it. And, uh, they moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico to start a new life. So Henry moving out here was very, uh, adaptable, very smart. He quickly became fluent in Spanish as a way to fit in amongst, you know, the new peers he had in the West. And I don't know, I just find this so fascinating. This was a really, really difficult, difficult region to live in. Umm, there were lack of resources, lack of medical care. There was so much prolific fighting, murder, just like, I mean, what you picture the Wild West to be.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, and this significantly dropped the average life expectancy in areas like this. So according to some sources, it was so tough to live out West, that 80% of the population was under the age of 30.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: 80% of the population was under the age of 30. That's how...
Em Schulz: So, if you really were there in another life, you didn't last long is what I'm hearing.
Christine Schiefer: I know. But apparently it made quite an impact over my soul.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was gonna say. But what a thrill it must have been. [laughter] What a what a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh what a thrill.
Em Schulz: What A lasagna horror it must have been.
Christine Schiefer: What a lasagna horror. Indeed. You know what, Em? That's good. You really, uh, came through with that one. So in any case, it was a very, uh, tough existence, uh, to make work, especially for a family with a kid. Basically, cowboys out there had picked up their tools for survival from Mexico's vaqueros. And these were often called the first real cowboys because they pretty much were. Under Spanish colonial rule, enslaved black men in Mexico had worked as vaqueros to maintain livestock. And as livestock populations grew and demanded more work, uh, they abolished a law that had been set in place that had forbidden indigenous people from riding horses. And they would be...
Em Schulz: Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Executed if they were found riding a horse? So they abolished that law.
Em Schulz: Oh Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because they needed more people to work on these, you know?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Livestock farms and that law was repealed. So soon black and indigenous people in Mexico were mastering techniques as far as horseback riding. And they were paving the way for other cowboys who eventually became the face of the wild west, like Billy the Kid. So Henry was still just a little kid, and he settled down with his parents in Silver City, New Mexico, where William, his stepfather, could find work as a miner. Oh, also mining is another weird thing. I have like a very strong attachment to, for no good reason, like coal mining, I don't know.
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: I just like, coal mines. I'm like, I find it fascinating.
Em Schulz: I I don't get... I'm colonial Williamsburg. [laughter] So like, take it, please take it, run with it.
Christine Schiefer: I think coal, I like, I just love stories about coal mines. I don't know. Listen, I live in Kentucky now. Maybe I'm just trying to get to my Appalachian roots, [laughter] but something about it, I'm like, ah. Anyway, so Catherine unfortunately was suffering from tuberculosis and apparently she worked in a laundry, meaning, and like reading about this was just, it like drives home how hard it was to live in this era anywhere. Umm, especially if you had to do labor.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: She worked at a laundry meaning she had these like big huge boiling buckets of water to wash clothes in. And then apparently they had like cold buckets where you would have to jam your hands into a, like, so you don't get burned.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So you'd like be in the scalding water.
Em Schulz: So it was constant shock.
Christine Schiefer: Constant shock to your system. And she had tuberculosis and got a lung infection. And like, think about how horrible that would be to be in this like, enclosed area with all these like dirty boiling water where you're washing people's sweat out. And...
Em Schulz: So even if you weren't a cowboy, you were not gonna live past 30. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like. It was tough no matter what. Like, it didn't even 'cause again, like the cowboy stuff aside too, there wasn't really hospitals, there wasn't really like, it was, I mean, I don't even know a better way to say it. It was like the Wild West. Like there's no structure in place for medical care and that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So you're kind of out of luck. So she had hoped moving, you know, from like New York City and Indianapolis to, uh, a desert climate would heal her symptoms or help her tuberculosis. But unfortunately she did get a lung infection and she succumbed to her illness only a year later at the young age of 45.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she left 13-year-old Henry alone. Uh, he did have a younger brother, but at this point, he and his stepfather, you know, his stepfather wasn't really interested in raising a kid that, you know, wasn't biologically his own.
Em Schulz: His step kid too, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And so he was kind of just adrift at age 13 and he moved into a boarding house run by a woman named Mrs. Sarah Brown. And we're not sure if, uh, Henry had been a troublemaker, you know, before his mom passed. Uh, but at this point he did start to get into a little bit of trouble. He befriended another boy in the boarding house and they were, uh, like partners in crime, I guess you would say. Uh, literally. So on September 23rd, 1875, which was a year and one week after his mother's death, Henry was arrested along with his friend from the boarding house, George Schafer. The story goes that Henry was on the lookout while George robbed a laundry operator making off with clothes and two guns.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they were both arrested for this, charged with larceny and sent to jail. And even though the sentence was pretty light, and he was young and he was gonna get out pretty soon, he was very impatient. Um, and decided he was gonna break out immediately.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he shimmied up through the chimney and escaped. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I can't even imagine the upper arm strength for that, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: I, I can't even imagine putting my stupid butt in a chimney, [laughter] but okay. Yeah, he's like 15, so I guess he's probably gangly, you know. And, uh, he he makes his getaway. And now at age 15, he's officially an outlaw already because...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He's escaped from prison.
Em Schulz: 'Cause he's already escaped.
Christine Schiefer: From jail. Yeah. So the Silver City Herald published a story on this escape. And this is actually the first story published about the boy who'd become the most notorious outlaw of his time.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So his escape out the chimneys, like the first newspaper article about him, which I kind of love. So Henry made his way through New Mexico, through the desert alone to the mines where his stepfather worked. And William gave him some money, his stepdad, and said, you know what? Get out of town before you get in trouble. And Henry said, alright, you don't need to tell me twice. And he skipped town. He wandered through the winter until he showed up in the Arizona territory at Camp Grant. And at this point he was 16 years old. So he started taking up odd jobs on ranches. Uh, and this is when he picked up his infamous nickname, the Kid.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Now qui... Little quiz, pop quiz for you. Not really pop quiz, 'cause I haven't taught you this yet, but do you know why Kid was such a, it was actually a very common nickname back then?
Em Schulz: Oh, why? Was like, you want me to know why?
Christine Schiefer: You have a guess? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Why? Is it 'cause so many parents were dying by 30. There were just kids everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: That actually, I think that actually is part of it. Yeah. That I think that actually is part of the theory, interestingly, that like so many people were starting their lives at such a young age because the life expectancy was so short.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But so I actually pulled, um, pulled a line from a website called tvtropes.org, uh, and they said quite a few gunslingers and outlaws made their reputation before they were even old enough to shave regularly. Thus they got Kid as part of their nickname.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And people, there were so many teenagers and young people like working these ranches and then moving on and then getting replaced that people would just kind of call you like, oh, the kid. The kid. It was kids who were kind of either delinquents or were considered like, I don't know, just on their own, uh, escaping the law, what have you, basically kid was what you were called if you were a young person, kind of potentially in some trouble.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And you think like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, there's like a lot of kid...
Em Schulz: All right... So Kid, kid was mildly derogatory.
Christine Schiefer: It was a little bit, I think it was more just like, uh, ya hooligan, you know, like a...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: A young person getting some trouble. But then a lot of them kind of took that nickname on and it was like an endearing thing, so I think it was kinda...
Em Schulz: Gotcha. They reclaimed it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. [laughter] Yeah, exactly. So Henry was just one of many kids, but eventually he would take that as like his actual, you know, name. So Henry made little money, but he wasn't responsible with what he did make. Again, he's 16 and like his, he doesn't know his dad and his stepdad doesn't want him, and his mom is dead. So I can't imagine you...
Em Schulz: Tough life.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, I don't blame him for being 16 and gambling away his money. Like, you know, there's worse things you can do, I guess. But he...
Em Schulz: Especially. When you have years 14 left expectancy wise, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. You're already more than halfway through your life expectancy at this point. So yeah, he gambled it away. He started spending time with a horse thief and suspected murderer named John R. Mackey, and they became pals. And, um, John had a notorious gang. And so he kind of got in the folds of that. And a year later Henry was arrested for the second time in his life for stealing horses from soldiers. And when he was arrested, they listed his name in the paperwork as Henry Antrim alias Kid.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so Antrim was his stepfather's last name.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he had kind of taken that, and then Kid was the nickname he had gotten. Um, so you can kind of see how we're getting to Billy the Kid. Slowly but surely. So fortunately for Henry, uh, a local dance was occurring that night and the guards were much more interested in going to the local dance, uh, at the... I assume some sort of saloon.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it was much more important to the guards to go there than actually guard the prisoners. So they kind of let them be for, for a while. And Henry took advantage of that. He was in shackles, but he managed to escape while they were gone. And I watched a documentary yesterday, uh, and they showed like the actual handcuffs. It was the director of the Civil War Medicine Museum, which I've always wanted to go to. Um, and he was showing how you could escape those handcuffs back then, because like if your hands were either too big or too small, like you could just get your, get out of it.
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: Like they were so finicky that like, they only worked, you know, on people with very average sized wrists.
Em Schulz: Which is wild because you would, if you knew it was foolproof, if you grew up at a time when that was foolproof. It's not like you can say, ha ha, he's shackled now off to the dance. Like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Apparently this was like...
Em Schulz: Like you Knew there was a chance he wasn't gonna be there.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently this was like a fucking epidemic. People escaping these, these handcuffs. So like, I don't know, I don't know what they were thinking, but, uh, I guess it was... The dance was worth it. You know, it was a big deal.
Em Schulz: He's like's... It's like, I'll just catch 'em again later. I guess. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like it almost feels like a cartoon sort of, where it's like, it's not that serious, you know? It's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we'll catch him next time. Like, it always, sometimes it seems...
Em Schulz: It's like a, oh man, kind of thing.
Christine Schiefer: Aww shucks. Yeah, it feels, sometimes they say, oh, you're gonna be hanged tomorrow. And then he like, escapes. And I'm like, what are these people doing? Like, they're saying these like crazy serious things and then they're like, oh well. I don't know. It seems like it was a very different time. So he gets out of these shackles, he disappears for a few months and he comes back that August, uh, and enters a poker game near Camp Grant. And we know this because during the poker game, he got into an argument with the local blacksmith Emothy. Oh no, not Emothy. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Not yet. Not yet.
Christine Schiefer: Not yet. Not yet.
Em Schulz: Maybe you were Billy the Kid. And that's how we found each other.
Christine Schiefer: Ahhh! Well this is gonna be rough news for you, Em, because.
Em Schulz: Bang.
Christine Schiefer: He killed the blacksmith. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, [laughter] I saw that coming.
Christine Schiefer: Whoops Yeah. So Henry Gunton...
Em Schulz: You're like I'll see you in another life. I'll see you over there.
Christine Schiefer: I also, I love in that theory that I, or in that version of events that I did a Akashic record reading for you. And I'm like, I'm like, I see you as a blacksmith. And I'm like, yeah, and I fucking murdered you.
Em Schulz: But not as my murder victim. [laughter],
Christine Schiefer: I see you covered in blood. Nope. Uh.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: It's like you did see me as a murder victim and you went, let's, let's, let's not go there. Let's not tell you about that.
Christine Schiefer: Let's gloss over that. Yeah. [laughter], listen. I'm sure there was context, you know, you had to be there. [laughter] That's so true. Like, I don't know where I came up with that. But anyway, so he got into some sort of argument with a local blacksmith whose name was Francis, Windy, nickname Windy, Cahill and Windy attacked Henry. So this was provoked. Okay. Umm, you started it.
Em Schulz: I know what I did.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Windy attacked Henry, pinned him to the ground and started slapping him like really aggressively. And it was sort of at least a vibe I got from one of the documentaries I watched is that it was almost a show of like, haha, like overpowering him and like making the other people laugh in the...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: In the saloon. You know, it was sort of like to entertain people. And so Henry shot him, uh, got up and ran, and Windy died the next day from this gunshot wound. And Henry skipped town. This time he fled to New Mexico and he ended up running into a gang called The Boys who belonged to a larger web of outlaws out in the West [laughter] And... Why are you laughing?
Em Schulz: What was... I'm sorry. Like the kid and then No, no, the boys.
Christine Schiefer: The boys.
Em Schulz: And then they're part of... And then they're part of a bigger group where I'm sure there's the girls and like [laughter], it just keeps going.
Christine Schiefer: The men, [laughter] the fathers. Yeah.
Em Schulz: The teens. The pre-teens.
Christine Schiefer: There actually, there are a couple of more gang names that we'll get to. And some of them I'm like, Ooh, that's badass. And some of them I'm like, you could have brainstormed a little longer, you know, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but yeah, The Boys, uh, who belonged to a larger web of outlaws, whose name I do not know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The People.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately. Yeah. The People. And so, uh, at this point, Henry dropped his stepdad's last name 'cause he had already been arrested under that name. Right. And so he took up his first name or his stepfather's first name, uh, assuming the alias. William H Bonney. And Bonney was his mother's last name. So...
Em Schulz: Aw, what an interesting, that's a fun game for all of us to play. What would our name be if we did father's name, our initial mother's name?
Christine Schiefer: I think it was her. I think it was her maiden name. I wanna make... I I, I wanna be sure of that, 'cause her name was McCarty when he was born, so I don't know where he got the name. Bonney, I'm trying to remember.
Em Schulz: It might have been her first name or her middle name.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. I think it was either a, uh, oh yes. Okay. So it was his mother's maiden name. Alright.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he took William from his stepfather, Bonney from his mother's maiden name, and H was his middle initial...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: For Henry. And that is where you get the nickname Billy the Kid. This became the nickname that stuck.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: And another thing, I'm sorry, I feel like I keep interjecting with like anecdotes and side stories,...
Em Schulz: Go ahead.
Christine Schiefer: But I just find this so fascinating. They talked about on, umm, the, I think it was a PBS documentary, they talked about, uh, how back then you wouldn't know what an outlaw looked like, right?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So you see like, oh, this person's wanted, and you know, this person is so dangerous, but like you wouldn't know if some random guy walks into your town.
Em Schulz: Oh that's him.
Christine Schiefer: Like you wouldn't know that that's Billy the Kid, the notorious outlaw, you know? And so...
Em Schulz: He can be like my name's Tyler.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: And it's like. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You could just fucking change your name. And everyone's like, okay. You know, it's like really an interesting thought because it was so expensive to create a, an image. And actually that's apparently a misconception of the old, the Wild West, is that there were not that many wanted posters. Like that wasn't as common as we kind of see it in the trope of like the Wild West. And, uh, there actually was never a wanted poster for Billy the Kid. There was only...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you'd think like somebody that notorious for sure there would've been, but there was only one, um, piece in a newspaper, uh, clipping or like one newspaper clipping that said, you know, $500 reward for Billy the Kid. Umm, but it was not, you know, spread around town as posters and uh, you know, people wouldn't have known what he looked like. There's only one photo of Billy the Kid in existence, which I will send you. And uh, I will say it's, as they said in the documentary, it's not the most flattering picture, but I still find myself like enamored with him. I don't know. I don't know. He just has a, he has a draw to him.
Em Schulz: Maybe, maybe in a past life you were like his one secret true love that he just couldn't shake.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Paulita?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I've already thought about that pretty extensively. I'm like, maybe I was Paulita.
Em Schulz: In Your, in your shower. Like next time you take a shower with your like alone thoughts, you're just like, oh, imagine her Paulita.
Christine Schiefer: Daydreaming. [laughter] I swear to God, I was like, maybe I was Paulita the way I'm like getting so weird about this. Like, I don't know. Or maybe I was like, Paulita's, uh, like sister and I was jealous. I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of options.
Em Schulz: And I was Hamilton. Okay, great. Okay, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Of course, I'm gonna put my life into the narra... Narrative of Hamilton. Okay. So anyway, he takes up this new name. Uh, he's now Billy the Kid, later that year, he is arrested for the third time in his life. And this time it is for possessing stolen horses. And the horses belong to a 24-year-old cattle rancher named John Tunstall. But this is where there's a little plot twist because apparently John Tunstall really liked Henry now Billy and like took a liking to him and sort of took him under his wing and became his mentor. And it's kind of a romanticized part of the story, but it's seemingly true that they had a very special like fatherly son bond..
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because he had not known his father. His stepfather had kind of brushed him aside and now he had somebody who was like actually taking care of him and mentoring him. And it, it just, it's kind of nice. He had, he had this guy John Tunstall as his sort of father figure. So when Billy got out of jail for stealing John's horses, John was like, ah, man, I can't stay mad at you. Come work on my ranch. So he hired...
Em Schulz: No, you're lucky, you're cute. Yeah, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're lucky, you're cute. That's exactly, you're lucky you have that doofy grin with your [laughter] weird looking teeth. Uh, and so he let him start working on the ranch and Billy finally got this like, stable home life, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he really liked the other ranchers. And he got along with like his compatriots on the ranch, and I'm sure they weren't called compatriots, uh, but [laughter], whatever you wanna call it, his coworkers, I don't know. So he started working for John and his title was a cowboy and Gunman to protect the ranch. So he was hired as... It, it reminds me of like Frank Abagnale, where it's like you were the criminal, but now you know how to protect. You stole my horses.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So now you know how to protect my horses from being stolen by other people.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he really likes this job. He really likes this ranch. And the only hiccup in this is that John Tunstall, who owns the ranch, was caught up in this big business rivalry with two men named Jimmy Dolan and Lawrence Murphy. Their business as we're throwing around these names was called The House. Whatever the fuck that means.
Em Schulz: Okay. Man, everything just feels like a child named them.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like they looked at an item and said, that's that's the name.
Em Schulz: That's what that is.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, can't change it.
Em Schulz: If there isn't a horse in this story named, The Horse, I'm gonna lose my mind.
Christine Schiefer: The Horse. Yeah, exactly. Like they, it's just very predictable in a way. So their business, The House had a monopoly in Lincoln County where they lived, and they had this monopoly on dry goods and cattle. And so when this guy, John Tunstall came in with his ranch and wanted to get involved, they were pissed. So he was not afraid to stand up to them and try to get his own business. And so they had this big feud, right? But back then, things were a little more loosey goosey, legally speaking, as you can probably already guess. Uh, so not only did they basically control all business in the area, they basically controlled the law because the sheriff was like in their pocket, like in cahoots with them.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so this sheriff, this corrupt sheriff right, is like on the side of these original, like The House, like these business guys. And so Sheriff Brady would let The House and its men get away with anything including murder. So the sheriff just turned a blind eye if, you know, his guys did anything shady. But now that John was a competitor, uh, he feared for his life because it's not like nowadays where you can be sued, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: It was like, you're gonna be murdered. So in the legend about Billy The Kid, uh, like I said, his relationship with John Tunstall was very romanticized. And like John was a surrogate father to Billy, gave him a home, gave him a, a job, a purpose. And he did, uh, we do know he did give Billy a Winchester rifle, which became his favorite gun. And he used it his whole life, uh, and gave him a horse and was his mentor.
Christine Schiefer: So he felt like he had a family now. He had a future, he had a stable place to be. And, uh, what happens next was extremely tragic for Billy and sent basically his whole life, like into another set of turmoil. So there are two versions of this story. I'm gonna tell you. Uh, one of them. And then I'll tell you the one that I learned, umm.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know, either way the outcome is the same. But the first version goes that in early 1878, John Tunstall set out to transport nine horses to Lincoln, New Mexico, and left Billy and the four other men who worked on the ranch in charge. While he was gone along the way, he ran into an outlaw posse who ordered John to surrender his livestock on orders from Sheriff Brady, this corrupt sheriff in Lincoln County who hated him.
Christine Schiefer: And so among the posse members were probably Jimmy Dolan, Billy Matthews, Jesse Evans, and Buckshot Roberts. So some notorious outlaws who were part of The House.
Em Schulz: Ah-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Ah-huh. So John did not immediately surrender and instead began to approach the posse. So they shot and killed him on the spot.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's version one. Version two is that Billy was actually out on John's ranch riding with him. So like Billy was with John Tunstall.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And this is a version I've heard more often, and I don't know if it's just because it's more, uh.
Em Schulz: Traumatic.
Christine Schiefer: Exciting. Yeah, yeah. Or traumatic or dramatic. Uh, but it's the one that I've heard the most is that Billy was out on John's ranch riding with John Tunstall, again, his mentor, surrogate father, like the only person he's really like, felt this connection with when a stranger approached on horseback and shot John Tunstall right in front of him, just like point blank.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently the story goes that just to be cruel, they shot his horse too.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Just for the fun of it. Then they staged them to look like he was napping with his horse, and he propped John's hat under the horse's head and laid them side by side, like they were napping.
Em Schulz: Ohhh God.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that fucked up?
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So With that version, at least it's clear how traumatized Billy would've been from this.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But either way, he was very traumatized from losing this kind of father figure. And they later found out that either way the killer had been sent by Sheriff Brady. So whoever, whatever version of events happened, uh, John was killed.
Em Schulz: He was at fault.
Christine Schiefer: Under the order of Sheriff Brady. Exactly. The corrupt sheriff. So Billy is fucking pissed. And he is...
Em Schulz: Yes. He's Gonna kill Sheriff Brady for sure.
Christine Schiefer: You're fucking on it. You're on it. So he.
Em Schulz: I was there. So.
Christine Schiefer: Is you were there, No, you had already died. No offense. [laughter] I already killed you. [laughter] Oops. Uh, so either way he swears a vengeance against Sheriff Brady and The House, and he and the, his other co-ranchers who felt the same way about John, who had given them all like a home and a, you know, a job and a safe place to be. So they decide they're gonna get revenge, now this is.
Em Schulz: And they're called The Revengers.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Wait, you like, you're not far off.
Em Schulz: Avengers, are they called the Avengers? What?
Christine Schiefer: No, no. That would been what, what that would've been kickass. Uh, okay. I'll tell you in a moment, but let me explain first how it happens. So the local Justice of the Peace, this is kind of, uh, the timing was pretty wild. So the Justice of the Peace appointed one of John's employees. So one of, uh, you know, he had been killed. And then the Justice of the Peace appointed, uh, one of, uh, Billy the Kid's like other ranch hands to become a special constable. So now one of the guys seeking vengeance for the death of John is a special constable, meaning that they have the, uh, power to make arrests, like legal arrests.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, oh my God, I've just been given this great power where I can arrest people. The, the Justice of the Peace said I can arrest people now. So he created what was a lawful posse, sort of like a legal gang, like a legal vigilante gang called The Regulators.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay. You were right. I was pretty on it.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty close. And they recruited Billy The Kid, 'cause he was in that friend group. So Billy the Kid is recruited into the posse, and each member was paid $4 a day on their hunt for John's murderers. So basically they had one job, it was to find John's murderers, and they were getting paid, uh, the equivalent to $122 today, uh, per day. So.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That would be roughly $15 an hour in today's eight-hour workday.
Em Schulz: Hey girl.
Christine Schiefer: Which like, not bad.
Em Schulz: Not bad.
Christine Schiefer: I think, I mean.
Em Schulz: Especially when Billy The Kid would've done it for free So. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say he was already doing it. Exactly. Umm, I don't know. I feel like I would've been like, I can't find him. I guess you gotta keep paying me to look, you know, [laughter] but, but he was determined. So pretty immediately they captured three members of the posse that had killed John the House. And although, although they were supposedly making their way, uh, with their three prisoners to jail in Lincoln to hand over the outlaws, they just so happened to kill all three men on their way back to Lincoln. So.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is considered cowboy justice.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the town of Lincoln was set into a tizzy, uh, because people were like, wait, what the fuck? You just arrested three of people from this town and killed them instead of bringing them back, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: To jail. And so this became an uproar and people started getting divided over, like whether they had the right to do that. And meanwhile, the New Mexico governor traveled to Lincoln to assess the situation and decided that the Justice of the Peace who had given The Regulators, like the legal right to arrest people, had fucked up majorly. And so the governor was like, you are no longer Justice of the Peace. You're fired. So he's out, meaning Dick Brewer, the guy who, uh, got the special constable title...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: The role no longer had that jurisdiction. He could not just.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Short lived.
Christine Schiefer: Legally.
Em Schulz: Short lived.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Right. He had had that power for such, such a, a taste of power. And speaking of which, he kind of took that and ran with it. He did not wanna give it up. So what was, once a legal gang now became, uh.
Em Schulz: A gang.
Christine Schiefer: A very illegal gang. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It became a gang of outlaws who are no longer legally sanctioned to do what they do, but they're doing it anyway.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So I, I love the idea that they started legally and then just like immediately went into...
Em Schulz: They had a moment on the, on the right side of history. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They tried, you know, umm, so in any case, they decided they still needed to get revenge, and the, their task was not over. So they were now outlaws officially something that at least was very familiar territory for Billy The Kid 'cause he had been, like I said, an outlaw since age 15. So April, 1878, Billy and five members of The Regulators. This is, uh, the legend has it that they sought him out, but in reality, we're pretty sure they just happened to run into Sheriff Brady. Like they were out having, having a, having a meal. And one of them said.
Em Schulz: Just stumbled upon him.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, someone said, is that Sheriff Brady? And they were like, now's our chance.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they just got up, walked outside, fucking point blank, open fire, and a shootout ensued. So as a result, Billy, the Kid was shot in the thigh, but he escaped alive. And Sheriff Brady was killed. He killed Sheriff Brady for his role in John Tunstall's murder, uh, along with a sheriff's deputy. So as you can imagine, this did not go well in the town. Uh, he just killed the sheriff and the sheriff's deputy in cold blood, like in the streets of Lincoln. Like this was not good. And he was doing it for vengeance, but also it pissed everybody off.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So three days later, Buckshot Roberts, uh, one of the people who...
Em Schulz: There he is.
Christine Schiefer: There he is. Who had killed John, hunted down The Regulators, and another shootout ensued. And this time Buckshot Roberts was killed, along with Dick Brewer, John's, uh, foreman and the honorary, you know, leader of The Regulators, the guy who had started The Regulators, he was killed. So all the surrounding towns were in uproar. There was violence, uh, left and right. And it was like taking over the town. Like people felt like they couldn't, like, and I feel like this is one of the tropes that actually is kind of correct? About the Wild West, like this place for a long time there were just people after each other, shootouts, sheriffs, like trying to track down outlaws. Like, this all happened. So I find that kind of cool. But of course, families and people just trying to live a day to day life out here were like, I don't love that this is becoming so out of hand and there's so many more casualties. And people started taking sides. Like some people thought, oh, you know, the law is the law.
Christine Schiefer: We should take the side of the sheriff. But then other people were like, no, The Regulators are just getting like, revenge on some corrupt sheriff. Like, I'm on their side. So people start splitting, and men on both sides were inciting the violence. So there wasn't really like one bad guy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and both sides were committing murder, but only The Regulators were being blamed officially for anything.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: So people started to get a little salty about that and soon both posses the outlawed ones and the deputized official ones, uh, had dozens of men in their respective ranks. Like they're just creating little mini armies.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And this violence escalated for three months. This went on.
Em Schulz: My God.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Like, imagine living there and being like in hiding 'cause you're just like, I don't wanna be part of this. Like, I'm just trying to be a laundry person.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And everyone's shooting each other outside, like, what the fuck? It just...
Em Schulz: I feel like you just get used to it. You just hear the gunshots and you're like, Ugh, please don't hit me. And just keep on going about your day.
Christine Schiefer: Not again. Yeah. You're like, just cover, put the, like a, you know, those cat copper iron tubs for washing? I'd be like, okay, everybody get under your copper tub. They're, the gun shots are going.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And just like, use it as a traffic cone to cross the street. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, you just like hide under it. I mean, it must be so dangerous. Like, I imagine there was collateral damage when they're all just shooting each other in the streets.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was so drastic. It escalated for three months in what would become known as the Lincoln County War. And this climaxed in five days of continuous, nonstop fighting in July of 1878. And this is when 60 members of The Regulators, remember it started off with like five people. It's now 60 members of The Regulators based off against Sheriff George Papin. So the new sheriff. Uh, Jimmy Dolan, uh, one of the guys who murdered John Tunstall and roughly 40 of their supporters.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So there's a face off. And on July 19th, cavalry from the Army, the United States Army arrived to intervene. And they had these rapid fire Gatling guns, which were, you know, top of the top at this time.
Christine Schiefer: And the idea, sort of like National Guard was to keep the peace. Right. And they were supposed to be neutral, but of course they turned the gun on The Regulators and threatened to open fire.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And at this point, the remaining regulators were like, well, now we're totally outnumbered. And they fled. And only 13 remained. And of course one of those was Billy The Kid. He was not gonna flee. And he stayed up to fight. And the 13 who remained holed up in a nearby house. So they're basically surrounded in this house. And the sheriff, sheriff Papin does not know how to get them out. So what he does is pretty fucking cruel. He lights the house on fire.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's like, I'll light it on fire that that way they'll have to come out and we can kill 'em. So he tries to flush them out and demand surrender. And Billy The Kid, uh, tried to make a dramatic show of his escape because he wanted to like, create a diversion to let the others get away. But unfortunately, the plan didn't quite work. And Billy did get away, but most of The Regulators were killed in what was later called The Big Killing.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, really, really tragic day. And by September 30th of 1878, president Rutherford B. Hayes was fucking over it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He has had enough.
Em Schulz: I've Never heard anything else about him in his entire life, but now he's over it in my mind. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I don't think you need to know anymore. I think I've given you enough information about him. He's over it.
Em Schulz: Like, he's like, You know what? Here's the one fun fact about me. I am over it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And honestly, let that go down in history 'cause I love that about him. He's like, fucking hell, this is enough. So he appointed, so Rutherford appointed a new governor of New Mexico and said, your job is to restore peace to the state of New Mexico. So the governor announced that everyone involved in the Lincoln County War would be pardoned for their participation, except for those who were currently under indictment for other murders, which included Billy The Kid who had of course murdered, uh, Buckshot Roberts and Sheriff Brady.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he was still an outlaw. He was not pardoned as part of this. In early 1879, Billy The Kid and four other men rode into Lincoln to meet with Jimmy Dolan, one of the guys who had, uh, The House, you know, who had killed, uh, Tunstall and four of his men. And it was the one year anniversary of John Tunstall's murder. So they met and tried to come to an impasse. Right. They tried to talk things out. So what they did, I mean, this is the most Wild West like visual ever. They meet in the middle of the road with their guns, like in the dirt road, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm imagining a swinging saloon door in the background.
Em Schulz: Gotta be.
Christine Schiefer: There Gotta be. And they shake hands and they set a pact. They say that we will stop killing each other and we will stop testifying against each other in court. If anyone violates this agreement, they will be killed on site.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So both sides said.
Em Schulz: Truce.
Christine Schiefer: Great. We won't kill, truce, we won't kill you, we won't testify against you. We're done. We're safe from each other. So in March, the governor received a letter from Billy The Kid, and Billy The Kid. So sweet wrote, I have no wish to fight anymore. Indeed I have not raised an arm since your proclamation as to my character, I refer to any of the citizens for the majority of them are my friends and have been helping me all they could. I am called Kid Antrim, but Antrim is my stepfather's name waiting for an answer. I remain your obedient servant.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he really wants out, like he wants out. He doesn't wanna be an outlaw, he doesn't wanna live life.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like I have a checkered past, but like, I'll, can we just do a redo? Redo.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like checkered past, but I can explain also I swear I'm a great guy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ask any of my buddies.
Christine Schiefer: Ask Paulita. She loves me. [laughter] Her sister does too, even though she's a little clingy. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And like lives in 2023 and she's actually married with a baby to someone else.
Christine Schiefer: And like murdered a lumberjack, but that's a whole different thing. Yeah. It's a little messy. [laughter] But anyway, they all love me. And so the governor said, all right, fine. Uh, I'll look into it. You can come testify. You can come and testify against several of the other men in exchange for amnesty. I will grant you amnesty. You'll no longer be an outlaw if you testify against Jimmy Dolan.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he says, sure thing. I'll do it. He has broken the truce already.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So the governor was surprised when the kid came and interacted with the public while he was in town, and he could see that Jim, uh, uh, Jimmy, Billy, the kid's letter was not an exaggeration because people were really, really drawn to him. He had like a very magnetic personality, uh, very open, friendly guy from what sources say. Just people were drawn to this guy. He lit up a room, you know.
Em Schulz: Sure, yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. He lit up a saloon, you know?
Em Schulz: Ah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes with a gun, sometimes with his beautiful personality.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say that the flash of the gun sometimes is what lit up the room. But yeah.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Unfortunately sometimes lit up in a bad way. So he really noticed people seem to like Billy The Kid. And after the kid's testimony, the governor declared, I will let you go scot-free with a pardon in your pockets for all of your misdeeds. So Billy's like phew,...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No longer wanted by the governor. No longer, no, no longer wanted, you know, by the law, but ultimately in this case, that he had testified, you know, as part of the case, he had testified in ultimately 50 men were charged with roughly 200 indictments, but almost none of them even went to trial. And despite testimonies, like the one from Billy the Kid about Jimmy Dolan's and the sheriff's involvement in these crime networks, almost all the charges were dropped. And most of the men were acquitted or skipped town.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So now Billy knew he was in big fucking trouble because he testified against them, and now they're free. So he had basically, uh, betrayed their trust.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And now he's in hot water.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he realizes justice is not being served. And now I'm a target. Uh, so I, he has to skip town again. And for the next few years, he gets up to his usual, you know, no good gambling, drinking shootouts with other outlaws. Uh, in one shootout, a well-liked blacksmith was killed while trying to negotiate a ceasefire. And yes, this is a different.
Em Schulz: May I rest in peace.
Christine Schiefer: Different blacksmith, unfortunately. Uh, and both sides blamed each other for his death. Billy outright denied having anything to do with killing this man. Uh, but nobody could come to an agreement on it. And so on December 3rd, 1880, the Las Vegas Gazette published an editorial that referred to the Kid as Billy The Kid, officially for the first time in writing.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: The paper frequently published tales of Billy the Kid's notorious exploits, often inflating the details at, you know how back then the newspaper articles sometimes were so verbose and flowery.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you were kind of like, it felt like they were kind of embellishing a little bit you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So whether they were embellished or not, his, uh, his exploits were splashed across the pages of the papers people were reading along. And Billy's infamy as an outlaw exploded. Umm, and this is where I had another one of those, like what you and I were literally just talking about one of those moments where I was just going over these notes before we recorded, and I was reading that rereading that bullet, and I thought, oh my God, the year was 1880 people in this house that I'm sitting in right now, were reading about this...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: As it was happening.
Em Schulz: So that, what a full circle from what we were talking about earlier of what was happening a hundred years ago, right. Where you're sitting.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, and it's so weird you brought that up because today, like a couple of hours before we recorded, I was sitting here thinking, man, I wonder if a ghost could see right now what I'm reading.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: If they'd be like, oh, I know that guy. You know? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so wild to me that like, back then, or to think about like whatever it, it, you know, I could go on a tangent, but basically I'm saying it is so cool to think about like living history, like, oh, this story back then in this household specifically would've been like the talk of the family. Like, oh, have you heard about this Billy The Kid, he's causing a lot of trouble. You know? And they were.
Em Schulz: It's wild how like...
Christine Schiefer: Followed along.
Em Schulz: A lot of people say like when they listen to podcasts, they're like screaming the answer,...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Even though like, we can't hear them. I wonder if on the other side, Harry is in your, on your couch right now screaming at you more details that you're butchering is like, I was there. I know.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, he's like, first of all, stop wearing pants. [laughter] Well, first of all, he's probably like start wearing pants because he, [laughter] I'm over the not wearing pants. Second of all, put on a corset, like a respectable lady. Uh, sorry Harry. Not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. Umm, but yeah, isn't that weird to think like, maybe they.
Em Schulz: How funky.
Christine Schiefer: Could see my notes and be like, wait, I know this headline or like a picture of the old newspaper. Anyway, I just love shit like that.
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: It just trips me out, you know? Oh, okay. Anyway, so on December 3rd of 1880, uh, like I said, the Las Vegas Gazette published an editorial referring to him as Billy The Kid for the first time. And this is again, when I started thinking about people in my house, you know, when they built it in the 1870s, like reading about this as it was happening. I just think that's so cool. Uh, so anyway, he at this point knew he was in hot water because the spotlight was on him. The whole nation is like following along. And he's like, I don't think that's good 'cause everyone's making me out to be this like violent outlaw, you know? So he wrote the governor a letter again and he said, I was not involved in killing that blacksmith, but the governor did not believe him. And instead a bounty was put on his head. And this is that newspaper clipping I mentioned that read "$500 reward notice is hereby given that $500 reward will be paid for the delivery of Bonney, alias The Kid to the Sheriff of Lincoln County."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So $500 back then is just about $15,000 today. So that's, that's a big chunk of change.
Em Schulz: I also, I feel, can you imagine writing a letter to the governor for help? And then the response is, oh, actually there's a public bounty for you.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, actually run. [laughter] Actually fucking run because we're coming for you. [laughter] It just feels so targeted. He's like, Hey, listen man, I didn't do this. He's like, sure, okay. Yeah. And then his eyes change, you know, And he's like, we're coming.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: It's like, I...
Christine Schiefer: Hear me out.
Em Schulz: So do you think at like, I don't know what was going on in the 1880s. Obviously I wasn't there 'cause you killed me, but like, I wonder.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry by the way that I didn't get to let you experience the last part of the decade. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Well, my thought is like, I don't know how possible it is to like just get on a train and just like fucking get to like New York and just like work a factory job or something and like be totally hidden and like there's no, there's no picture of you. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Can't you just go somewhere where there's not shootouts and a life expectancy of 30 and like just kind of...
Christine Schiefer: I wonder.
Em Schulz: Hold out?
Christine Schiefer: That's a great question. I think he probably could, but I wonder if at this point, like he's been living there since he was 13 and I wonder if like, this is just what he knows and the life he had. He, he can't imagine like...
Em Schulz: I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Of moving to...
Em Schulz: I don't know. I feel like if someone, if the governor, if fucking like Gavin Newsom had a $15,000 bounty on my head, I would leave California.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Uh, I would start a go, uh, GoFundMe to try and protect you. So don't worry.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I have a couple of theories about that and by, I have a couple of theories. People have theories that I've now, uh, learned and one of them is that he was in love.
Em Schulz: Aha. With you, with your sister. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: [cackles] Not with me. Unfortunately with Paulita. And, uh, some speculate he did not wanna leave town because he was head over heels and he just couldn't imagine leaving her behind.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uhh, some people speculate that this was just the life he knew and he had his friends. And another part of it is he was so young still that there's that element of like, notoriety.
Em Schulz: Naivete.
Christine Schiefer: Naivete. You feel invincible, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you've already escaped death so many times, you've already escaped jail so many times. It's sort of like you, I I imagine at this point you sort of feel invincible, like, well, might as well keep on keeping on, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's true.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I'm not really sure, but, uh, yeah, it would've probably been smart to just peace out, but I guess then he wouldn't have become, you know, that famous outlaw we all know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So there's this award out for reward out for his arrest, and on December 23rd, sheriff Garrett and his men hunted down, Billy the Kid's hideout and surrounded them, instead of a shootout though, they just spoke back and forth throughout the day and they finally got Billy to surrender. And the way they got him to surrender is, which genius and would work on you and me both, Em, they started cooking beans and bacon outside...
Em Schulz: Uh!
Christine Schiefer: And they...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Were so hungry that they gave in, they said, fine, arrest us, we'll go to jail, but I'm so hungry.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, they used human need to their advantage and uh, got them out. And they surrendered peacefully. So Billy had to say goodbye to his love Paulita Maxwell, and went to the sheriff to Las Vegas to be imprisoned. Uh, he said in an interview with the Las Vegas Gazette, "What's the use of looking on the gloomy side of everything? The laugh's on me this time." So...
Em Schulz: Okay. Hey, he owned it all right.
Christine Schiefer: He really is. He's like, uh, very self-aware, very, I don't know, he just has a charm about him. In April, 1881, Billy The Kid was ultimately charged with the murder of Sheriff Brady. He was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging. So, of course, the fairness of this trial was questionable, uh, considering that the governor had previously officially pardoned Billy for that crime. So it's like he's been pardoned, but now they really wanna punish him for it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and the other shady part is that the court appointed Billy a lawyer, who was well known for publishing negative pieces about Billy.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like in the newspaper. So even his lawyer was not on his side. So it, it... A fishy trial, if it can even be called that. But he was sentenced to death by hanging. So while awaiting his execution in jail, Billy was bored. He decided to concoct a plan to escape.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Of course. So there are several versions of this. Uh, and they're, they all are relatively similar with a couple of differences. One of them is that, uh, they, well, they all kind of start with him asking to use the outhouse.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he needed to be escorted to the outhouse. Right. As being, being a prisoner. And so getting to use the outhouse was the only time he wouldn't be shackled to the floor.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He would only have those flimsy handcuffs.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So he asked a guide, I'm sorry, a guard to escort him to the bathroom. And there are multiple versions of what happened here. Either he ran ahead, grabbed a gun out of the office from upstairs, turned and shot the guard as he was following up the stairs behind him. Another version is that he wrestled the guard's gun from him...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And attacked. And yet another version is that, uh, one of his, one of Billy The kids' compatriots had left a, uh, or fellow outlaws had left a gun in the outhouse, hidden.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so when he left the outhouse, he had a pistol and he could...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Kill, kill the guard.
Em Schulz: In some way he had a gun.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So he acquired a gun one way or another, and he was able to escape. But the problem was, there was another guard who was across the street watching five prisoners on the other side of the street. So the second jailer heard the commotion and came running outside to see what was going on. He then saw Billy lean out of the office, second storey window. He shouted, "Hello, old boy." And then shot him in the chest.
Em Schulz: Oh, eerie.
Christine Schiefer: Eerie. Uh, some of these sources say they, that he used his name, I think it was, I don't know, hello Bob. Something like that.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but I saw, "Hello old boy" in, in most of the research. So I went with that. He lived up to his reputation as the best marksman in the West. Uh, he was known for using the Winchester, uh, repeating rifle. It was like the, I mean, you've talked about it, it, it's like the, it was the most popular gun back then. It was like revolutionary for the time, because you could keep the gun facing your enemy when you reloaded it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Instead of having to like, take it and reload it from the top, you could reload it from the back so you could, you know, more efficiently kill people. So he was also known as an extremely talented marksman so he could shoot people just point blank.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So after shooting this guy, this other guard, uh, he then used a pickax to break free of his shackles. And then he stole a horse and made his getaway. So three months later, Sheriff Garrett and his men followed a rumor, who are now like on the hunt and double pissed 'cause they've already captured him. And then he escaped and killed both of their guards. So now they're extra pissed and they decide to hunt him down. And the way they do this is they follow a rumor that Paulita Maxwell was pregnant with Billy's child.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So guess where they go hang out for a little while.
Em Schulz: His house.
Christine Schiefer: At the Maxwell's house. Uh, at Paulita's house. So on July 14th, 1881, Billy The Kid, as he always did, went to Paulita's house to visit her in secret.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Now, Billy was often sheltered while on the run by Hispanic households. And this was actually a huge advantage to him. And one of the reasons people believe historians believe that he was so successful is because unlike other, you know, white Anglo people who had come in and treated the Hispanic population with derision, uh, he came, he learned fluent Spanish and befriended all the people in the area. So he was considered one of them, you know,...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They took him in, uh, families took him in, and people really cared for him. And so he was often sheltered by Hispanic households when he was on the run. And there was a lot of cultural animosity, uh, in this part of the country during this time. Uh, it was said that Billy The Kid, humbly learned most of his skills from vaqueros. And he always said, you know, that is where he learned everything from spurs, you know, the best spurs to wear, to horse riding technique, gunmanship. And he embraced the Spanish language, which was something that, uh, white Americans did not do.
Em Schulz: Unheard of at the time. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it was. It totally was. And so he never spoke as if he were, you know, better for being a white American. He just felt at home with them. But Paulita's family did object to her romance with Billy because he was an outlaw, which is fair.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I get the concern.
Em Schulz: That's a a good reason. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a different thing. Yeah. There was like some concern there. Uh, but Paulita was apparently head over heels. And they, they had, people had it on good authority that they were romancing one another. So unfortunately, Paulita's brother was not on board with his sister being emotional... Roman, romantically involved, uh, with Billy The Kid. So guess what? He invited Sheriff Garrett into their home that night...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: To wait and see if Billy would come around to see his sister.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: So fucked up.
Em Schulz: So fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, really messed up. And of course he did. He was in love. He wanted to see his girlfriend. And so he approached the house and he saw a kind of silhouetted figure in the dark that he did not recognize. And he called, this has become a famous line, uh, in the story of Billy The Kid.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: He called out, "Quién es? Quién es?" Because he didn't know who it was. And "Quién es?" is directly translated as, "Who is that? Who is it. Who's there."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And he was essentially asking Paulita's brother, like, who's in there with you?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he says, "Quién es? Quién es?" And, uh, sheriff Garrett stood up, took his chance, shot twice and killed Billy The Kid.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And that was the end of Billy The Kid. He was only 21 years old. And just like that, it wasn't in a shootout, it wasn't after he'd been, his building had been set on fire and he was trying to escape. It was just, he went to see his girlfriend and, uh, he was ambushed.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: He was killed on the spot.
Em Schulz: Man.
Christine Schiefer: So this news erupted internationally, papers around the world published Billy The Kid's obituary. And at the time, Sheriff Garrett received accolades for taking down this notorious outlaw. But the truth was that Billy The Kid was far more popular and more of a folk hero than this Sheriff Garrett ever became, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah. Like, everyone was like, hmm. Yeah. Petty small claps for you, I guess for.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, you did it, I guess [laughter], but thanks a lot. You know, we were really into this whole story and yeah. So only a year later than, I mean, I I will say too, like a lot of Billy The Kid's storyline is like vigilante justice, you know, like sticking up for, or getting revenge for the murder of his father figure. You know, a lot of it was very, umm, it felt Robin Hood-esque.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know like people, it felt like a, a folk hero almost to people.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So only a year later, after he died, a novel [laughter] came out about Billy's life. And when I say novel, I mean like a novel because it was pretty much embellished stories and myths about Billy The Kid's life. It was called the Authentic Life of Billy The Kid. And I feel like if any title says.
Em Schulz: It's irony.
Christine Schiefer: It's authentic, you kind of gotta question it. It's like.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Why are you insisting, you know? Uh, so this book immortalized Billy The Kid and his exploits as more of a grand myth than actual true facts in the American West. Um, but just to clarify, everything I've covered so far, as far as I can tell is, uh, whatever I...
Em Schulz: Authentic.
Christine Schiefer: Presented as fact is like, seems to be authentic fact. Yes.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so more books came out, followed by TV shows, comics and movies. And as of 2012, Billy The Kid held the record as the individual with the most films made about him in history.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I had no idea about that before I learned that. Uh, and I would say a number of them are probably spaghetti westerns just saying.
Em Schulz: Not lasagna horrors.
Christine Schiefer: No, probably not. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If one is, someone should let me know. But I would, I would like to know.
Christine Schiefer: Em You could be the first, you know.
Em Schulz: I know. Ah. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So to, yeah, it's crazy. He, he was, uh, really a legend is still a legend. Uh, and so today many stories about Billy The Kid are, you know, more legend than fact. And it's hard to know what's true. Uh, historians don't know as much about his personal life as they wish. Uh, like I said, there's only one single tintype photo of him in existence. And this photo, it's pretty famous, but I don't think I would've known what it was like I, I recognized it. I'm gonna get it for you 'cause I don't think I would've known what it was. Uh, if you had just said, who's that?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But when I saw it, I was like, I've seen this photo before. So [laughter], he's kinda here, I'm gonna send you a photo. Let me know what you think of my boyfriend.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry, I just heard you say my boyfriend. Okay. [laughter] Oh my God, he's so cute. You are a lucky girl. Lucky, lucky you.
Christine Schiefer: Listen we're. Here's the thing, we're gonna put this on the Instagram and I know, listen, I know he is not traditionally the cutest guy, but.
Em Schulz: He's...
Christine Schiefer: Everyone has a bad photo, you know, and if you only have one photo ever, that sucks.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if you only have one photo and it's a bad photo of you? That's just awful.
Christine Schiefer: And he kind of blinked in it and it looks a little bit awkward in his...
Em Schulz: He looks like he doesn't know he's supposed to be posing yet. He's like waiting for his cue.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so the type of photo this is, it's called a tintype.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and it's kind of those cheap, uh, it's like when photography was finally starting to pick up and it's like a cheap metal, uh, piece of tin that the photo is put onto.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they cost 25 cents back then.
Em Schulz: Do you think, so he's seen this picture of himself, you think?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. He. Yeah. Mm-hmm. He had that. Yeah, I know. So you didn't wanna fork out another quarter and, uh, get a redo. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I if, if Paulita were in the room, I, I hope she would've been like, let's try that again.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, umm, I'm not putting this on our wedding, on our Zola website. Okay. I'm not adding that on the Zola website. You need a better photo if we're gonna get married.
Em Schulz: You know what's Interesting is like, it looks like he's actually wearing a very lovely cardigan.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: Like his, like that's like a, that's a ribbed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: A ribbed sweater he's wearing.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a cool, it's a fisherman's sweater. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I love the hat. That looks like a... [laughter]
Em Schulz: A dent, dented.
Christine Schiefer: It's like very funky looking. I don't know. Um.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: But So yeah, that was printed on a tintype and uh, it was 25 cents, which today is about $5. So you'd think he could have maybe shelled out five bucks...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For a new copy, but maybe he liked it and maybe he wasn't shallow, you know? So.
Em Schulz: It's interesting. And, and like, honestly, it's not the outfit I would've picked for an actual wild West cowboy, like A top.
Christine Schiefer: See, isn't that interesting?
Em Schulz: A top hat instead of a cowboy hat and like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, by the way, cowboy hats, I've learned, I think I learned this on lore, were like not really worn the way that we think they were. Uh, most people did wear like bowler hats...
Em Schulz: Ohh.
Christine Schiefer: And uh kind of these sort of top hat. I mean, not top hat, but you know, that, that style like a bowler hat kind of thing. Umm.
Em Schulz: Huh Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, ah, that's what we got on him. And, uh, this photo on tintype sold for $2.3 million in 2011 at a Colorado auction.
Em Schulz: Like... Like his actual one that he had.
Christine Schiefer: Like the original tintype.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Which is pretty badass.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like I think that's. Sometimes I'm like, why would someone pay that for an object? But this is pretty cool, like the actual photo he had taken. I think that's pretty cool. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also, like, how do you preserve something like that to make sure it stays, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I haven't talked about this on the podcast and I've been meaning to, but I'm so overwhelmed and I will bring it up next time. But somebody mailed me, maybe I did bring it up. Somebody mailed me like hundreds of old timey original tintypes and photographs from like the 1800s.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I'm talking like a pile like this big to my, to my PO box with no, note.
Em Schulz: No Wonder you have fucking ghosts in your house. Dude.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: What are you talking about? That's not.
Christine Schiefer: Some of them are babies in those weird dresses. And I'm like, who.
Em Schulz: They're The ones taking Blaise's glasses. This isn't some Harry shit anymore. I don't think.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: This is.
Christine Schiefer: Why am I blaming Harry? That's probably why he's pissed. He is like, I didn't fucking do the, who are these people in my house.
Em Schulz: Also he's like, He's like, yeah, this house I thought was like empty. Why are these all these guests in here all of a sudden?
Christine Schiefer: There's All these like random farmers here now. Yeah. I don't know. So their name started with an L and I, the only information was a return address on the package. No note nothing. Just a massive stack.
Em Schulz: Isn't that always the eeriest when people send you things with. No, no context. It's just like, here you go.
Christine Schiefer: It was crazy. And they were just like, all the, and a lot of them had like these weird stamps on the back. They all seem to be from like Ohio, Indiana area. Umm, I have to show those to you, Em, when you visit. There's several tintypes in there and they're, it's really creepy, honestly. Umm.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Interesting. Yeesh.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, that sold, and Billy the Kid's lover, Paulita once said, oh my God, here you go. That she never liked the photo of him.
Em Schulz: Good girl. Okay. That's what's up.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause she said it did not do Billy justice.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she knew, she knew. She was like.
Em Schulz: She probably saw that and went, oh, this is the only, and this is the only copy. Huh? This is the only option I have.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like this is such a guy thing. Like, so what, what's wrong with it? She's like.
Em Schulz: Totally.
Christine Schiefer: I want people to see what you look like. Who cares. [laughter] Yeah. Apparently millions of people will care one day [laughter], believe it or not.
Em Schulz: Also though, like maybe that was his like, fucking strategy of like, if there's a bad picture of me no one...
Christine Schiefer: True!
Em Schulz: Will know what I really look like, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was probably dangerous to get a bunch of photos out there. Like.
Em Schulz: Yeah 'cause he was probably like, girl, please don't show people what I look like. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The wanted posters are gonna be up before you know it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So. The photo, now this is, uh, kind of a fun twist. So he was known as charismatic, handsome, charming. And despite his notorious reputation, he was actually very well liked by most people who knew him and known as like a very loving and caring person and friend. And this photo of him that was, that has become so famous, uh, [laughter], it shows Bill's gun on his left side. And this led to the belief that Billy, The Kid was left-handed. And this misconception became so famous that entire films were made about it, like the left-handed gun.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they referred to Billy The Kid as like the left-handed, you know, outlaw. Turns out the photo was just reversed. [laughter] So he was actually right-handed the whole time. Uh, so fun fact for you there, if you've heard that rumor. And although Billy The Kid was a notorious outlaw, who according to legends, killed 21 men in his 21 years of life, uh, history often remembers him favorably. And many people still defend his actions claiming he was only guilty of seeking justice in a corrupt system. Ergo, the kind of Robinhood vibe he gives. So the stories of Billy the Kid's escapades, uh, many embellished presented him as an easygoing guy who never killed unprovoked. And I feel like that's important.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Today, he's become one of the most famous anti-heroes in history with many still petitioning for an official governmental posthumous pardon for his crimes after the pardon he received was revoked during his lifetime. So in 2010, the governor of New Mexico was considering an official pardon, but he ultimately decided against it, citing historical ambiguity.
Em Schulz: Mmm!
Christine Schiefer: Thus, to this day, Billy The Kid remains the West's most infamous outlaw.
Em Schulz: And in my head, I'm, I'm playing, uh, Taylor Swift anti-hero song now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I love it. It's me, hi. Yeah, it's me. Hi. I am Billy The Kid the problem.
Em Schulz: And Also Billy Joel's Billy The Kid song. So [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, that too. Yes. Yes. Uh, yeah. So that's his story. I just, I really, I just always, I feel like there's a trope about outlaws just like shooting people willy-nilly, no care, respect for life, but it doesn't seem like that's this case at all. And it seems like he didn't even really set out to be...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A notorious outlaw. You know, he just wanted to be, to get revenge for an unjust killing and...
Em Schulz: It even sounded like he was like trying to step away from that world. And then every time it would, like something would happen, he'd go, ugh, not again. And then just have to get back into it.
Christine Schiefer: Not again, I'm brought back into it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you know, he lost his mother so young and had such a, a really impoverished and rough upbringing. Umm, and he really made a name for himself. So cool story.
Em Schulz: Wow. And that is the story of Christine's first lover. So, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know, you know, I was in Egypt before that, so I'm sure I had a few more lovers. [laughter] But don't, uh. You don't need to tell Billy about that.
Em Schulz: You certainly wouldn't have swiped right on him today if you saw that picture on Tinder. But, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I might, you know me. I might've been like.
Em Schulz: You'd be like, I can.
Christine Schiefer: He looks interesting.
Em Schulz: I can change him. Like there's.
Christine Schiefer: We have a lot to talk about. There's something called Invisalign. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You'd be like, I just have to zhuzh up his style. He'll get it.
Christine Schiefer: It's fine. And also like who caress?
Em Schulz: Yeah. If He's a bad boy at heart, but that's okay. That's okay.
Christine Schiefer: If he's funny. All bets are off.
Em Schulz: I do know that about you. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I am a sucker. I like the second someone makes me laugh. I'm like, okay [laughter], I'm in love. And they're like, I did not want you to fall. And it's like, well, too late.
Em Schulz: We didn't. We didn't ask for this. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We did not Ask for this, but too late.
Em Schulz: Wow. Talk about a good episode, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: This was a fun ride.
Em Schulz: A fun ride. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm proud of us. Good job, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank You. Good job, Christine. Good game.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Good game. Good game. Good game. Good game. Good game. Good game.
Christine Schiefer: Good game. Good game. Where's my orange slices? Eva! [laughter] I want a Capri-Sun now.
Em Schulz: We have, umm, our After Hours to uh, get back to, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Do you remember what we're doing today?
Em Schulz: No. Do you?
Christine Schiefer: So in our After Hours today, I'm gonna be going over the current active serial killers.
Em Schulz: Oh yes!
Christine Schiefer: In the US today. 'Cause I wanna cover the current, currently active serial killers to look out for. [laughter] So.
Em Schulz: Aha. Yes. Good, good, good.
Christine Schiefer: Pop On into Patreon if you wanna hear that conversation 'cause I already have a bunch of bookmarks ready to go.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah. If you want to hear Christine's real wacky, deep dives, we [laughter], but very topical deep dives that are also lifesaving. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like they're, they're wacky, but they're also very scary and important.
Em Schulz: I think that's how most of our talks are. It's like, well, it's a little nutty until you need the information. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like that, uh, saying everyone said for a while, like, I'm just in a silly, goofy mood...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: When I do something like totally deranged [laughter] It's Like Oh, I'm just being a little silly today and talking about all the active serial killers to avoid. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Ah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm also sending a picture of Paulita to the group chat so we can add her, uh, next to her love. Uh.
Em Schulz: All right, well as the, uh, resident bi of this show, what do you feel about Paulita? Are you?
Christine Schiefer: I think she's a beauty.
Em Schulz: In love with both of them.
Christine Schiefer: I think she's a beauty.
Em Schulz: Look at. She's such a cutie pie.
Christine Schiefer: She is such a cutie pie. I was like, these two would've made the most beautiful love story and I wish that they had that chance. It makes me very sad. Uh.
Em Schulz: Aw. They loved each other.
Christine Schiefer: That it was cut short, you know, and the fact that she was from a Hispanic family and like he just loved her despite that. And I say despite that because there was such, you know, it wasn't unusual for, uh, marriages to happen between the different communities, but it was still frowned upon by a lot of people on both sides. And so I thought it was just a really cool story 'cause uh, you know, her family didn't approve, of course, story ages, oldest time, but, umm, [laughter], it was so.
Em Schulz: Which Christine continues to perpetuate.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I sure do. Uh, but yeah, I think, uh, I think they had, you know, something really nice and, uh, it's, it's too bad it got cut short.
Em Schulz: Well, if you wanna hear us talk about more killers, you can do that over at Patreon and uh, I'm sure Christine's got quite a lot to say. She might be attracted to some of them. So let's be like very careful about that.
Christine Schiefer: You never know.
Em Schulz: You know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You never Know. You know.
Em Schulz: And.
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
